Lets talk more in depth about progressions and what to play over...

degenaro

Active member
Seems Stratotone's Am7-Am6 (D9) post goes well with this...

Lets start with the application of ii-V-I's. I always try to know what tonality I play over at any given time (that includes times where somebody leads into uncharted harmonicterritory).
Tonality to me means keycenter. The way I can stablish keycenters is by knowing what key the chords belongs to.

As I've said before the most basic progression is the ii-V-I
or part of it, or variation of it. The reason for this is that they're
considered the "definitive chords" in major. Meaning, nothing wll
tell you faster that you're in the key of C major then hear Dm7-G7-C.
Vai? Howe?
oops...Why? How?
the I and IV chord in major in its basic 7th form is always
a major7,
the ii,iii an vi chords are m7
the V is a dom7
and the vii is a m7b5.
That's always the same in any key.
So in C major that would be
Cmaj7=I
Dm7 =ii
Em7 =iii
Fmaj7=IV
G7 =V
Am7 =vi
Bm7b5=vii
So, hearing Dm7-G7-C will define your key.
Mind you, you do have the options of looking at the scale choices we dealt with when doing subs and treat each chord separately, or you can use keycenter thinking and play the parent scale through it. If you choose the latter, pay mind to the strong chord tones though. A f note sounds fine over the Dm7 or the
G7 but needs to be resolved over the C. But I digress...

Now that we know that a ii-V-I will define the keycenter, what about a
ii-V, or ii, or V by itself same thing, you can either think of it as
chord and use the stuff we did during subs, or think keycenter. As you
see personally I'm not all that big on modes in general, but there are
applications where I prefer modes.
But for a garden varitey ii-V-I in C I find it overkill to
think D dorian, G mixolydian, C major. When C major will do, AS
LONG AS YOU KNOW WHAT ARE THE STRONG CHORD TONES ARE.


Plurality
---------
since there is a major7 chord on the I and the IV, we an
think of a
Cmaj7 in two ways. Either as the I in C, or the IV in F.
Same with the
m7, a Dm7 can be thought of the ii in C, the iii in Bb, and
the vi in F.
Applied Plurality
-----------------
Just as we can use plurality across scales, we can use it
across chords.
Cmaj7 c,e,g,b--I (T)
Dm7 d,f,a,c--ii (SD)
Em7 e,g,b,d--iii (T)
Fmaj7 f,a,c,e--IV (SD)
G7 g,b,d,f--V (D)
Am7 a,c,e.g--vi (T)
Bm7b5 b,d,f,a--vii (D)
Lets compare the iii chord has 3 notes of the I chord, as a
matter of
fact iii chord can be viewed as a Cmaj9 without the root.
The vi chord
has all the notes of a C6 chord. So what does this mean?
It means that we can substitue those for each other.

The Fmaj7 and Dm7, have the same type of
interchangeabilty, due to the
fact that Fmaj7 is nothing than a Dmin9 without root, or
Dm9 is a F6 for
that matter.

The Bm7b5 is the rootless version of a G9. Music
functions with tension
and release moving along from the Sub Dominant(SD) to
tension Dominant
(D) to release Tonic (T).

There are differnt degrees of tension and release
depending on what
chords you chose, but you see (look above) that the
chords that are
plural to each other have the same function. Hence the
bility to swap
around. That is called substitute by funtion. That means
that we can
break down progressions into simpler forms. Lets use an
example here.
Em7---|Fmaj7-Bm7b5-|Em7---|Am7---|--Fmaj7|G7---|
Em7
actual chords within the scale
iii |IV vii |iii |vi | IV |V |iii
function
T SD D T T SD D T
applying plurality and simplyfying
I |ii V | I |I | ii | V | I
Cmaj7 |Dm7 G7 |Cmaj7 |Cmaj7 | Dm7 |G7 |Cmaj7 That
should be enough to
give you a headache already<g>


Nothing in music is difficult, only unfamiliar... Kenny
Werner
 
degenaro":ffd04 said:
Seems Stratotone's Am7-Am6 (D9) post goes well with this...


Great stuff Ed, I even think I got most of it :eek:

I'd love to understand the substitutions more in depth, just what I consider a personal weakness with me.

And give Stratboy his due on starting the other thread you referenced, not Stratotone!

:D
 
Ed, I want to clarify something...

degenaro":42fab said:
So in C major that would be
Cmaj7=I
Dm7 =ii
Em7 =iii
Fmaj7=IV
G7 =V
Am7 =vi
Bm7b5=vii

The tonic (I) in your example is always cmaj7. Can you do it with simpler chords like:

Cmaj = I
Dm = ii
Em7 = iii
Fmaj = IV
G = V
Am = vi
Bmb5(??) = vii

Also, it si safe to say that if I change my tonic from C to E following your example you end up with:

Emaj7=I
Fm7 =ii
Gm7 =iii
Amaj7=IV
B7 =V (or Bb5???)
Cm7 =vi
Dm7=vii

or something......


I noticved that the pattern after the tonic is simply going up the scale A-B-C etc... but there's another pattern made up of I-ii-iii-IV-V-vi-vii.

Why go from major to minor (I to ii)?

What the rules for those?


God, I hope I make sense :eek:
 
The answer is due to key signatures. The key of C major is no sharps and no flats. So, you take every note in the C major scale (C D E F G A B)and build a traid off of each one (C E G, D F A, E G B, etc).

For E major, you would have to adjust for the key of E major, which is 4 sharps (F#, C#, G#, and D#). So:

Emaj - I (E G# B)
F#min - ii (F# A C#)
G#min - iii (G# B D#)
Amaj - IV (A C# E)
Bmaj - V (B D# F#)
C#min - vi (C# E G#)
D#dim - viio ("o" should be superscript to represent diminished) (D# F# A)
 
jasonpiano25":3f1ea said:
The answer is due to key signatures. The key of C major is no sharps and no flats. So, you take every note in the C major scale (C D E F G A B)and build a traid off of each one (C E G, D F A, E G B, etc).

For E major, you would have to adjust for the key of E major, which is 4 sharps (F#, C#, G#, and D#). So:

Emaj - I (E G# B)
F#min - ii (F# A C#)
G#min - iii (G# B D#)
Amaj - IV (A C# E)
Bmaj - V (B D# F#)
C#min - vi (C# E G#)
D#dim - viio ("o" should be superscript to represent diminished) (D# F# A)

I see, I can tell the pattern now but I don't have the scales and individual notes within the sacle by heart. I can play them in various mode but I don't know the individual notes.

Thanks!
 
Hold on Ed..........

But for a garden varitey ii-V-I in C I find it overkill to
think D dorian, G mixolydian, C major. When C major will do, AS
LONG AS YOU KNOW WHAT ARE THE STRONG CHORD TONES ARE.

Now, this is where I come from....finding the key and running with it. How am I going to have some tension while plying in straight key? Yeah I could land on the B and do some trill or bend maybe.
 
Digital Jams":e3551 said:
Hold on Ed..........



Now, this is where I come from....finding the key and running with it. How am I going to have some tension while plying in straight key? Yeah I could land on the B and do some trill or bend maybe.
Seriously tension isn't anything to worry about until all the inside shit is rock solid.
And then it depends on the chord...and the ears...over a C the b is a major 7...other then wanting to reolve to c it's pretty consonant to me these days.
Tension is the shit you throw over the V chord, since that chord wants to resolve as it is.
Say you play a G7 and the chord is going to resolve to a C chord. Before hitting the C you can hit pretty much any note...
say a g#...just the b9 on the G7 reolvong down to the g (fifth on the C chord).
Hit a eb...the #5...it'll resolve quite nicely to the e.
Hit a Bb...it'll resolve to the C. Worst case scenario when you hit a note that tweaks your ears...move it. A good note is never further than a half step away.
 
degenaro":c91d7 said:
Seriously tension isn't anything to worry about until all the inside shit is rock solid.
And then it depends on the chord...and the ears...over a C the b is a major 7...other then wanting to reolve to c it's pretty consonant to me these days.
Tension is the shit you throw over the V chord, since that chord wants to resolve as it is.
Say you play a G7 and the chord is going to resolve to a C chord. Before hitting the C you can hit pretty much any note...
say a g#...just the b9 on the G7 reolvong down to the g (fifth on the C chord).
Hit a eb...the #5...it'll resolve quite nicely to the e.
Hit a Bb...it'll resolve to the C. Worst case scenario when you hit a note that tweaks your ears...move it. A good note is never further than a half step away.

I take it you are explaining you need to know the rules before you can break them. I understand what you are saying and I agree.
 
Digital Jams":2ba8b said:
I take it you are explaining you need to know the rules before you can break them. I understand what you are saying and I agree.
Sorta....if you can't play a bitchin inside solo going outise will sound like you don't know how to play.
 
Cool thread. I myself usually like to find which scale works best over a chord progression. If i play a specific scale over a specific chord then it's usually planned out ahead of time. But I'm trying to play more outside, and i don't mean on my porch. :)

When i play i always see the pentatonic boxes and i always see and can piece together the major scale across the neck and i try and hit those key tonality notes. Of course i need more work on it but i want to break out of these boxes I'm usually stuck in.
 
All these lessons should be grouped together and made downloadable. Then a link thread should get stuck and updated acordingly. I think it would realy benefit alot of people.
 
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