Melodic Minor over the dominant 7 chord...

[degenaro]

I get that this place is mostly 80s Metal guys but I figure I'd throw this out anyways...
On a dominant 7 going to another chord down a V chord one way to make stuff sound way cool is by using the melodic minor up a half step...
In other words when you say have a Blues in A and it's going to the D (the A even though its the I chord it acts like the V chord of the D when it goes to the D) the Bb melodic minor pulls really nicely to D.
The notes of the Bb mel minor as related to the A7...
Bb=b9 of A
C=#9 of A
Db/C#=3rd of A
Eb=b5 of A
F=#5 of A
F#/Gb=6 of A
G#/Ab=7 of A

Or to make it more obvious...

 

[War Admiral]

Cool Ed! Love them "outside" notes! Beautiful notes that create tension and excitement.

BTW you look almost as tall as me...how tall are you? I'm 6'5"

 

[degenaro]

Cool Ed! Love them "outside" notes! Beautiful notes that create tension and excitement.

Yeah, I'm a big fan of melodic minor over dominant 7 chords...

up a 1/2 step, down a whole, up a 4th, up a 5th...all of them are great for that. That was one of the things I loved about taking lessons from Don Mock, he had a way of getting mondo mileage out of applying what you know differently.

 

[mmolteratx]

Try a half whole diminished over a dominant 7 omitting the b2 if you haven't already. Really nice Scott Henderson type sound.

 

[degenaro]

Try a half whole diminished over a dominant 7 omitting the b2 if you haven't already. Really nice Scott Henderson type sound.

Big fan of the half-whole, not sure why ypu'd avoid the b9...that's one of the reasons to use it, heck that's one of the reasons to use a melodic minor up a half, down a whole, up a fifth.

Heck if I really don't want the b9 I use melodic minor up a b3 or a 4th.

 

[mmolteratx]

Try a half whole diminished over a dominant 7 omitting the b2 if you haven't already. Really nice Scott Henderson type sound.

Big fan of the half-whole, not sure why ypu'd avoid the b9...that's one of the reasons to use it, heck that's one of the reasons to use a melodic minor up a half, down a whole, up a fifth.

Heck if I really don't want the b9 I use melodic minor up a b3 or a 4th.

Just never really been a fan of the sound for what I play.

 

[shredhead7]

So you're just playing the same pattern, up or down a few frets depending on mood? I know this is simplifying it, but removing the theory, that is about it? In addition, are you playing Bb only over the A or the D or both?

Similarly in rock/blues, like playing the minor pent over the root minor, so Em root, playing at the 12th position and sliding the same pattern down to the 7th position or up to the 19th?

The reason why I ask, is this is the type of stuff (shortcuts if you will) that I would like to learn.

 

[stephen sawall]

Thanks Ed .... i well be looking at this one closer later.
In the video above are you playing over a chord progression in your head and what is it ?

I made a very strong attempt to play pentatonic stuff as much as possible for the last 5 years ..... lately my ears have been heading the other way.

 

[degenaro]

So you're just playing the same pattern, up or down a few frets depending on mood? I know this is simplifying it, but removing the theory, that is about it? In addition, are you playing Bb only over the A or the D or both?

Similarly in rock/blues, like playing the minor pent over the root minor, so Em root, playing at the 12th position and sliding the same pattern down to the 7th position or up to the 19th?

The reason why I ask, is this is the type of stuff (shortcuts if you will) that I would like to learn.

It's one way to look at it...the down side is that it becomes running patterns rather than choosing notes on purpose.
But yeah, it is mosdef a viable way of sticking your toes in the water. And in this case I think Bb melodic minor over A ...the over D I play D lines.

 

[degenaro]

Thanks Ed .... i well be looking at this one closer later.
In the video above are you playing over a chord progression in your head and what is it ?

I made a very strong attempt to play pentatonic stuff as much as possible for the last 5 years ..... lately my ears have been heading the other way.

In this case I-IV-V in A.

 

[shredhead7]

So you're just playing the same pattern, up or down a few frets depending on mood? I know this is simplifying it, but removing the theory, that is about it? In addition, are you playing Bb only over the A or the D or both?

Similarly in rock/blues, like playing the minor pent over the root minor, so Em root, playing at the 12th position and sliding the same pattern down to the 7th position or up to the 19th?

The reason why I ask, is this is the type of stuff (shortcuts if you will) that I would like to learn.

It's one way to look at it...the down side is that it becomes running patterns rather than choosing notes on purpose.
But yeah, it is mosdef a viable way of sticking your toes in the water. And in this case I think Bb melodic minor over A ...the over D I play D lines.

Thanks for the update. Yes, I realize very simply, to begin studying anything, I personally have to memorize it. In doing so, I'm not really thinking about it, just letting the fingers go. From there, it becomes tone to finger position recognition (which is my half assed attempt at note memorization), where the music really happens. I did play around on my acoustic last night with this and it does sound good. Where I would like to experiment more is applying this to a rock setting, as I'm not a jazzer, but do have a fusion leaning to what I gravitate to. So taking a typical blues progression, with power 5ths (basic rock) and seeing how this will translate.

Thanks for the info!

 

[degenaro]

So you're just playing the same pattern, up or down a few frets depending on mood? I know this is simplifying it, but removing the theory, that is about it? In addition, are you playing Bb only over the A or the D or both?

Similarly in rock/blues, like playing the minor pent over the root minor, so Em root, playing at the 12th position and sliding the same pattern down to the 7th position or up to the 19th?

The reason why I ask, is this is the type of stuff (shortcuts if you will) that I would like to learn.

It's one way to look at it...the down side is that it becomes running patterns rather than choosing notes on purpose.
But yeah, it is mosdef a viable way of sticking your toes in the water. And in this case I think Bb melodic minor over A ...the over D I play D lines.

Thanks for the update. Yes, I realize very simply, to begin studying anything, I personally have to memorize it. In doing so, I'm not really thinking about it, just letting the fingers go. From there, it becomes tone to finger position recognition (which is my half assed attempt at note memorization), where the music really happens. I did play around on my acoustic last night with this and it does sound good. Where I would like to experiment more is applying this to a rock setting, as I'm not a jazzer, but do have a fusion leaning to what I gravitate to. So taking a typical blues progression, with power 5ths (basic rock) and seeing how this will translate.

Thanks for the info!

Blues thang in E...
when you're going from E to A use one of those...
D melodic minor
F melodic minor
A melodic minor
B melodic minor
G melodic minor...

 

[carl roa]

Cool licks! Melodic Minor rules! Love the sound of that scale.

 

[70strathead]

i love melodic minor modes. I'm still learning alot about them and how/when to apply and actually Greg Howe is who turned me on to them taught me a few examples of the mel minor over dom 7th thing. I really like the altered sound over the dominant 7 (#5 or b9) and the only way its easy for me to remember is Going “up a half-step” ..so over A7 would be the Bb melodic minor scale, which really creates that strong "outside" sound becasuse of the altered tension. I stilll have a ton to learn about these..great post Ed!

 

[ewizlctr]

This is great stuff! I worked with melodic minor theory a lot in college but a little less now. If you check out Last Chance to Reason, I use some modes of melodic minor to create some weird harmonic structures!

www.myspace.com/lastchancetoreason

 

[degenaro]

i love melodic minor modes. I'm still learning alot about them and how/when to apply and actually Greg Howe is who turned me on to them taught me a few examples of the mel minor over dom 7th thing. I really like the altered sound over the dominant 7 (#5 or b9) and the only way its easy for me to remember is Going “up a half-step” ..so over A7 would be the Bb melodic minor scale, which really creates that strong "outside" sound becasuse of the altered tension. I stilll have a ton to learn about these..great post Ed!

Ant for your stuff the harmonic minor up a 4th will be great too...i.e. A harmonic minor over E7, gives you all the chord tones and the b9 and #5. When you use melodic minor up a half step you get all the alterations...b9, #9, b5, #5.
As for alterations...
up a half, you get b5, #5, b9, #9
down a whole step you get b9.
up a 4th you get #5.
up a 5th, gives you the b5
up a b3, gives you b5, #5, #9

Plus if you add those 5 scales toss out all the doubles you get 11 notes...everything but the major 7....

 

[70strathead]

i love melodic minor modes. I'm still learning alot about them and how/when to apply and actually Greg Howe is who turned me on to them taught me a few examples of the mel minor over dom 7th thing. I really like the altered sound over the dominant 7 (#5 or b9) and the only way its easy for me to remember is Going “up a half-step” ..so over A7 would be the Bb melodic minor scale, which really creates that strong "outside" sound becasuse of the altered tension. I stilll have a ton to learn about these..great post Ed!

Ant for your stuff the harmonic minor up a 4th will be great too...i.e. A harmonic minor over E7, gives you all the chord tones and the b9 and #5. When you use melodic minor up a half step you get all the alterations...b9, #9, b5, #5.
As for alterations...
up a half, you get b5, #5, b9, #9
down a whole step you get b9.
up a 4th you get #5.
up a 5th, gives you the b5
up a b3, gives you b5, #5, #9

Plus if you add those 5 scales toss out all the doubles you get 11 notes...everything but the major 7....

thanks Ed. Question for ya. here's a chord progression I'm working on:

Dmin7add9 - F/Bb - C/Bb - Gm9 - A7#5 (b9)

if i wanted to imply Super Locrian Mode ( which i like the sound of), could i get away with playing that outside of the Em7b5 chord? or can i apply a Lydiant Dominant over the resolving A7 chord?

thx
A

 

[degenaro]

i love melodic minor modes. I'm still learning alot about them and how/when to apply and actually Greg Howe is who turned me on to them taught me a few examples of the mel minor over dom 7th thing. I really like the altered sound over the dominant 7 (#5 or b9) and the only way its easy for me to remember is Going “up a half-step” ..so over A7 would be the Bb melodic minor scale, which really creates that strong "outside" sound becasuse of the altered tension. I stilll have a ton to learn about these..great post Ed!

Ant for your stuff the harmonic minor up a 4th will be great too...i.e. A harmonic minor over E7, gives you all the chord tones and the b9 and #5. When you use melodic minor up a half step you get all the alterations...b9, #9, b5, #5.
As for alterations...
up a half, you get b5, #5, b9, #9
down a whole step you get b9.
up a 4th you get #5.
up a 5th, gives you the b5
up a b3, gives you b5, #5, #9

Plus if you add those 5 scales toss out all the doubles you get 11 notes...everything but the major 7....

thanks Ed. Question for ya. here's a chord progression I'm working on:

Dmin7add9 - F/Bb - C/Bb - Gm9 - A7#5 (b9)

if i wanted to imply Super Locrian Mode ( which i like the sound of), could i get away with playing that outside of the Em7b5 chord? or can i apply a Lydiant Dominant over the resolving A7 chord?

thx
A

Just so we're on the same page...you're asking about A super loc or A lyd doom over the A 7 alt. Right? Thing is in a progression with a functioning V it really belongs over the V..

For that you can really use either, super locrian is melody minor up a half..Lydian dominatn is mel min up a fifth.
So seeing that your V chord has the #5 and b9 I likely wouldn't go with lyd doom because that has the 5 and 9, especially since super locrian has the alterations you want.

Not sure where you get the Em7b5 but you can pretty much view it as part of the V...especially in this case since it makes the perfect ii-V-i

As for the profession period...
To me it's
i-bVI-bVII-iv-V
A very typical minor progression, which if you view it a major will be easier to grasp...
vi-IV-V-ii..I.e.
Dmin7 add9, not sure why the add since you have the 7 in it so technically it'd be Dm9,
Then the F/Bb is really a Bbmaj9, and the C/Bb is the V chord in major with the 7 in the bass, etc...
Reminds me of the ballad on the Stern play along.

But to get back to whether you can play super locrian across those changes without Em7b5 being there...
yes and no...you can do whatever you want, as long as you resolve.
But i'll be kinda weird since the chord where all weidness belongs to is a V chord. So, over the Dm9 going with e,f, g, ab, bb, c, d is kinda weird...and fwiw super locrian would be relating to the V not the ii.

 

[scuff]

i love melodic minor modes. I'm still learning alot about them and how/when to apply and actually Greg Howe is who turned me on to them taught me a few examples of the mel minor over dom 7th thing. I really like the altered sound over the dominant 7 (#5 or b9) and the only way its easy for me to remember is Going “up a half-step” ..so over A7 would be the Bb melodic minor scale, which really creates that strong "outside" sound becasuse of the altered tension. I stilll have a ton to learn about these..great post Ed!

Ant for your stuff the harmonic minor up a 4th will be great too...i.e. A harmonic minor over E7, gives you all the chord tones and the b9 and #5. When you use melodic minor up a half step you get all the alterations...b9, #9, b5, #5.
As for alterations...
up a half, you get b5, #5, b9, #9
down a whole step you get b9.
up a 4th you get #5.
up a 5th, gives you the b5
up a b3, gives you b5, #5, #9

Plus if you add those 5 scales toss out all the doubles you get 11 notes...everything but the major 7....

thanks Ed. Question for ya. here's a chord progression I'm working on:

Dmin7add9 - F/Bb - C/Bb - Gm9 - A7#5 (b9)

if i wanted to imply Super Locrian Mode ( which i like the sound of), could i get away with playing that outside of the Em7b5 chord? or can i apply a Lydiant Dominant over the resolving A7 chord?

thx
A

The most natural sounding mode on the A7 in that progression would be the mode constructed on the 5th degree of D minor harmonic scale
The notes would be A-Bb-C#-D-E-F-G. This mode is sometimes called jewish or hebraic scale.

The lydian dominant scale that would work on the A7 chord would be the Eb Lydian Dominant, also called mixolydian #11.
This mode is constructed on the 4th degree of the Bb minor melodic scale (1/2 step over the A7).
The notes of the Eb lydian dominant mode are Eb-F-G-A-Bb-C-Db.
Notice that this mode would also work on the tritone sub of the A7 chord, Eb9. You can try substituting the A7 chord for a Eb9.

Regards.