Everything about W-D-W?

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glpg80

glpg80

Well-known member
im curious about these setups and want to learn more.

the do's,
the dont's
the requirements for amplifiers to slave off of
the different wiring configurations available, and the preferred methods or suggested methods available.
the way you record them
what poweramps are better to use? tubed or solidstate?
cheaper to slave another head?
the tonal improvements - are some amplifiers a personal decision? as in, you will know when it will improve with a W-D-W or W-D setup?or will you get a better balance in tone from all amplifiers?

and pics of them from fellow RT members. :rock:

i find this really cool. i can imagine the live tone would be just unreal. but what about recording? how would you record a W-D-W setup or a W-D setup?

just basically alot of questions about a potential tonal heaven. my 5150II is like that, when the effects loop is turned on it sucks some tone from being a series setup, especially at higher volumes.

the design to make it parallel still wouldnt be as good as a W-D-W or a W-D setup, so im looking at some answers. ive got 2 cabinets, and i might put my slant to good use later on.
 
glpg80":wbr3wxxk said:
im curious about these setups and want to learn more.

the do's,
the dont's
the requirements for amplifiers to slave off of
the different wiring configurations available, and the preferred methods or suggested methods available.
the way you record them
what poweramps are better to use? tubed or solidstate?
cheaper to slave another head?
the tonal improvements - are some amplifiers a personal decision? as in, you will know when it will improve with a W-D-W or W-D setup?or will you get a better balance in tone from all amplifiers?

and pics of them from fellow RT members. :rock:

i find this really cool. i can imagine the live tone would be just unreal. but what about recording? how would you record a W-D-W setup or a W-D setup?

just basically alot of questions about a potential tonal heaven. my 5150II is like that, when the effects loop is turned on it sucks some tone from being a series setup, especially at higher volumes.

the design to make it parallel still wouldnt be as good as a W-D-W or a W-D setup, so im looking at some answers. ive got 2 cabinets, and i might put my slant to good use later on.
Click to expand...



Me too........on the W/D/W rig :confused:

Steve
 
Most of the stuff you list is all personal preference. Some people like SS tube amps while others like tube ones. Here is how I have mine setup:

Mark III or Recto Speaker Output to the main dry speaker cabinet
Mark III or Recto Line-Out to the Input of Intellifex
Left/Right Outputs of the Intellifex to the Left/Right Inputs of my MosValve Poweramp
Left/Right Outputs of the MosValve to speaker cabinets

It's best to have at least 3 speaker cabinets for the full effect. The wet cabs can be small 1x12s. In fact, some people prefer the 1x12s in combination with a single 4x12 for the dry. If your amp doesn't have a line-out, you can use a Hotplate or a Suhr ISO Line Out box. If your effects processor has a killdry feature, it's best to use that. Most TC Electronics effects processors seem to have it. Hopefully that'll get you started. :rock:
 
Here is a basic w/d rig done by a forum member Hal9000, this could be w/d/w by using a two channel power amp and sending out from the fx unit in stereo.

hal9000WetDryRigRevB.png


Really all there is to it, it is just having the nerve to buy the parts you need and experimenting :thumbsup: One problem is that once you do it you will not want to go back to that single amp.
 
can you run the line out of the amplifier safely into an effects processor?

im guessing that is what some of these pedals mean by the decibal setting of +4db or 10dB. whats the different setting requirements?

yeah i wouldnt do a racked effects processor again, i dispise the MIDI stuff and having to pre-program a gig line-up and the complications with patch recall delay. but sorry for all the questions :rock:
 
IF the amp has a line level output yes you can run that to your fx processor. Speaker out you will need a line out box like a H&K redbox and if you need a load the HP will give you both line out and a load.
 
glpg80":2ppd6fp7 said:
can you run the line out of the amplifier safely into an effects processor?

im guessing that is what some of these pedals mean by the decibal setting of +4db or 10dB. whats the different setting requirements?

yeah i wouldnt do a racked effects processor again, i dispise the MIDI stuff and having to pre-program a gig line-up and the complications with patch recall delay. but sorry for all the questions :rock:
Click to expand...

The fx unit in a WDW setup should be of the rack type (Intellifex, G-Major, etc.). In my opinion, it is best to come out of one of the speaker output jacks, into a box such as the Suhr ISO box, and then into the fx unit because you get the sound of the head's power amp by doing that. Some amps are built with line outs that are post power amp (Mesa)? and you don't need a box for those. I think that really helps the effected tone. Then you go out of the fx units left and right outs into a stereo power amp (I have used a Mesa 2:90 and a Marshall 9200 both with great results) and then to the wet cabs. Never tried a SS amp with a WDW setup so can't comment on that.
 
killertone":16hgd0l1 said:
glpg80":16hgd0l1 said:
can you run the line out of the amplifier safely into an effects processor?

im guessing that is what some of these pedals mean by the decibal setting of +4db or 10dB. whats the different setting requirements?

yeah i wouldnt do a racked effects processor again, i dispise the MIDI stuff and having to pre-program a gig line-up and the complications with patch recall delay. but sorry for all the questions :rock:
Click to expand...

The fx unit in a WDW setup should be of the rack type (Intellifex, G-Major, etc.). In my opinion, it is best to come out of one of the speaker output jacks, into a box such as the Suhr ISO box, and then into the fx unit because you get the sound of the head's power amp by doing that. Some amps are built with line outs that are post power amp (Mesa)? and you don't need a box for those. I think that really helps the effected tone. Then you go out of the fx units left and right outs into a stereo power amp (I have used a Mesa 2:90 and a Marshall 9200 both with great results) and then to the wet cabs. Never tried a SS amp with a WDW setup so can't comment on that.
Click to expand...

This is more along the lines of what I was thinking you had to do. The brain is on OD right now.

Steve
 
I think it's overkill.

I hate it.

Why would you waste two whole cabs with nothing dry coming through?

I like the wet and dry to go through the same power amp and cabs.

Just keep your levels under control with a good line mixer, and you have nothing about which to worry. :rock:
 
guitarslinger":1xg7nlri said:
I think it's overkill.

I hate it.

Why would you waste two whole cabs with nothing dry coming through?

I like the wet and dry to go through the same power amp and cabs.

Just keep your levels under control with a good line mixer, and you have nothing about which to worry. :rock:
Click to expand...

n00b :cheers2:
 
For me its the best setup i could ever use, because you get this huge stereo spread that a mono rig w/FX Loop can't ever achieve.

I don't use the normal kind of setup as in, only stereo FX in the outer cabs. Well i do for stereo delay, but my most important part is off-setting one of the Wet cabs with a super short delay (i use 26ms). I use an SDE-1000 for that. This makes a big sounding Wet/Dry/Wet rig about 50% bigger sounding.

I normally do the same thing with a Wet/Dry setup using only 2 cabs, and it works just as well, if you can't be lugging around 3 cabs.
 
so if the line out is POST OT, then you dont need a load box.

but 5150's have them pre power amp, so even if i used a line out i still would need a load box for the line-out directly correct? you'd need a load box for running directly off the OT anyway but im just curious. i didnt realize there was more than one way to skin a cat here.

so far there are 2 methods - line out and post OT using a load box.

with a load box like a THD hot-plate, can it bypass in/out while also being used as a line-out at the same time without actually making a decrease volume?

im guessing zack uses something from his rack as his W-D-W to split the incoming signal to two outputs right and not a THD?

in the G-Major that i had, you had an input for each side of the g-major and an output for each side of the g-major. could you input on only one side L or R and then output both L and R to the poweramp of your choice for your wet?
 
glpg80":38dg7v47 said:
so if the line out is POST OT, then you dont need a load box.

but 5150's have them pre power amp, so even if i used a line out i still would need a load box for the line-out directly correct? you'd need a load box for running directly off the OT anyway but im just curious. i didnt realize there was more than one way to skin a cat here.

so far there are 2 methods - line out and post OT using a load box.

with a load box like a THD hot-plate, can it bypass in/out while also being used as a line-out at the same time without actually making a decrease volume?

im guessing zack uses something from his rack as his W-D-W to split the incoming signal to two outputs right and not a THD?

in the G-Major that i had, you had an input for each side of the g-major and an output for each side of the g-major. could you input on only one side L or R and then output both L and R to the poweramp of your choice for your wet?
Click to expand...

There are definitely a few ways to approach this... w/ my rig-- you're correct, I don't get the line signal feeding the processors from a hot plate, though I do have a hot plate, and use it (by loading down the middle dry cab) if I want to go stereo instead of w/d/w.

The (line level) split that happens, is a result of my CAE amp selector, dropping the load level signal for each amp in parallel-- to an adjustable line level signal-- which feeds the audio switcher-- which feeds the rack processors, which is then routed to a line level mixer which then sends that signal to a stereo power amp for the stereo effects cabs.

(Hope this helps clarify a few ideas for you)

 
Matt, you can tap an adjustable line out off of the speaker jack using a resistor and a pot. If you don't have the real estate in your amp you can put it in a little project box between the amp and cab.
 
Nigel Tufnel":25zzsg9h said:
Matt, you can tap an adjustable line out off of the speaker jack using a resistor and a pot. If you don't have the real estate in your amp you can put it in a little project box between the amp and cab.
Click to expand...

This seems easier to me-- :yes:

lineOut3_lo.jpg
 
Zachman":1srh59i5 said:
Nigel Tufnel":1srh59i5 said:
Matt, you can tap an adjustable line out off of the speaker jack using a resistor and a pot. If you don't have the real estate in your amp you can put it in a little project box between the amp and cab.
Click to expand...

This seems easier to me-- :yes:

lineOut3_lo.jpg
Click to expand...
No doubt, I've never used one of those myself but they look very nice. John and his guys make some really nice stuff, that one utilizes a little transformer in the design I believe. But if you're on a budget you can whack together a box like I was talking about for $10-$15.
 
glpg80":13eiui7s said:
so if the line out is POST OT, then you dont need a load box.

but 5150's have them pre power amp, so even if i used a line out i still would need a load box for the line-out directly correct? you'd need a load box for running directly off the OT anyway but im just curious. i didnt realize there was more than one way to skin a cat here.

so far there are 2 methods - line out and post OT using a load box.

with a load box like a THD hot-plate, can it bypass in/out while also being used as a line-out at the same time without actually making a decrease volume?

im guessing zack uses something from his rack as his W-D-W to split the incoming signal to two outputs right and not a THD?

in the G-Major that i had, you had an input for each side of the g-major and an output for each side of the g-major. could you input on only one side L or R and then output both L and R to the poweramp of your choice for your wet?
Click to expand...

No, if your 5150 is not connected to a speaker cab you will STILL need a load if I read what you did. Some OTs are tapped post power section like Mesas where they have the slave out feature but the amp still needs a load. The crappy JVM you can do this while in stand-by :lol: :LOL: :D

If you are loading down the amp with the THD the line out is adjustable but then you will not have your dry signal as you would be going to the fx and amping that.
 
killertone":1tll3qq0 said:
Some amps are built with line outs that are post power amp (Mesa)? and you don't need a box for those.
Click to expand...

that is what i was talking about. a load meaning a load box for line out use and not necessarily to go off of the OT, but off of the line out itself if it is after the preamp but before the phase inverter. i know OT's require a load - thats common sense :thumbsup: . i would suspect just because anyone is using a line-out that the OT is still receiving a signal from the grids of the power tubes.

basically, all line-outs require a load box either pre or post, not the amplifier itself after the OT. correct? or incorrect?

the OT load can be used for your dry cabinet from what i am reading here, or if you dont use the line-out methods, then a load-box is required to get you a usable line out with level control.

i was asking, since he worded it that way, if you had to have a load box for pre-power section line-outs since mesa's are post power-amp low voltage line-outs and safe for effects processors. i dont believe peavey's are safe enough for direct line output, last time i checked that thing was a pretty hot output.

what about the g-major question? is that how it is connected and sent?
 
LEts make this easier :D

What gear are you planning to use and we can put it together with what you are trying to do :thumbsup:

With a Mesa MK series it was big in the day to go into racks or slaving one MK into another power amp like the Mesa Satelitte power amp so they had the post OT Slave out or line out. With that amp no you do not need a line out box since the amp provided one if you had a cab connected to the amp. If you were slaving the amp then yes you had to load it down since you were goihng for the slaved tone and not the tone from the first amp you are slaving.

The picture I posted is if you are going out of the fx send before the power section and you can see that the signal is returning to the cab for the dry side of the rig.
 
:lol: :LOL:

i agree. its getting confusing and it should be anything but that.

load box into a TC nova delay. 16ohm loaded 4x12 for the dry signal.

nova has independent outputs and inputs both for each side.

probably look at a cheap SS poweramp to save weight. i have a Merc Mag OT and 3H choke, so there is some tone from those components that really make this amplifier sing. i just want the dry tone from the amplifier so i dont have to use the effects loop that sucks so much tone and the A-D-A converter of the TC unit.

i can then run reverb/delay on one cabinet, and the dry tone on the other. keep the SS poweramp and use it as a clean replication of the tubed amplifier, and not supply any further additional tube-breakup.


probably a single SS poweramp for a W/D setup.. not sure what to look for though. i dont have the urge to carry 3 cabinets or invest in expensive 1x12's. and a tubed poweramp would be overkill for a W/D setup i believe.

let me know if im going in the right direction with this :thumbsup:
 
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