Researching Les Pauls

I know there are some threads out here already, as well as plenty of info throughout the web regarding shopping for Les Pauls. Much of those have been helpful. I'm starting my own thread so I can get that personal touch on my research that I know y'all are dying to give. So if y'all can handle yet another thread on someone researching Les Pauls, here ya go...

The most important factor for me is to avoid any of the body drilling Gibson has been doing the past couple of decades (according to this thread). Weight-relief Swiss cheese? No thanks. Chambered bodies? Hell no. If I wanted semi-hollow, I'd but an ES (or just find one in my closet!)). I'm man enough to take the extra wood without vaginal hemorrhaging. That being said, I either need an expensive-assed reissue, or an LP made before 1982.

What's the biggest difference between Customs and Standards? I'm under the impression that it's just cosmetics. Either way, I'd prefer a Custom because they look like buttery tone sex to me.

And how about Kalamazoo? Anybody wanna rant about that? My understanding is that once the Nashville plant opened in '74, the luthiers in Kalamazoo continued to make the higher-end Gibsons. I'm under the impression that they tried to make theirs superior to the Nashville axes in hopes of proving themselves indispensable to the company.

I haven't brought myself to the point of giving a damn about original pickups and all that. Maybe I should care, but I like new shiny pickups that are ridiculously hot. I'm hopeful that I can find an LP that someone else has already molested the value out of the electronics so I can get a better deal.

We all know that Gibsons are notorious for Headstock repairs. I discovered this back when I was shopping for my SG. I'm under the impression that they can be damn solid, but I always shy away from those. Any experiences there?

By the way, what's the deal with people censoring the serial number in online ads for their guitar? Do they think I'm gonna print it out and sell it to someone else? There's a lot that can be understood about the guitar given the serial number.

I appreciate everyone willing to put up with another thread on LPs and entertain my search. Don't assume that I've found all the threads on LPs here, so feel free to post those up as well. Thanks!

Ah! Similar research to what I've done.

Rule #1. Les Pauls are like assholes, everyone has/needs one, they all smell/sound different.

Rule #2. Asking questions is great, but with Les Pauls, you aren't going to figure out a thing about them discussing them with others. Each guitar is it's own entity. You will find some that suck that are supposedly the grail, you will find some that supposedly suck that are the grail. Play them all and let one speak to you.


Now that I've passed that point. You sound like "theoretically" the same Les Paul that is my grail will be yours.

Point 1. You don't want chambering/weight relief. 78-81 Were not weight relieved, did not have pancake bodies, and had three piece MAPLE necks with a volute.

Point 2. Headstock breaks, see pt 1 regarding three piece maple neck and volute. Those two attributes make for a strong neck that is less apt to breaking than the typical mahogany necks of late. The reasons Les Pauls are so prone to headstock breaks are the fact that the necks are built at an angle to the body (15* I think, but I may be wrong) and the length of the neck flows WITH the grain, the least strong construction type. The headstock on a Les Paul is at such an angle at the string break that it turns against the strength of the grain, allowing the break to split fibers. Visualize peeling string cheese instead of snapping a 2x4 and you have the reason the necks break. The maple neck on 78-81 has much denser grains, there-fore it is akin to the strength of a quartersawn fender neck, which can be used as a baseball bat, jack arm to lift a car or a zombie assault weapon. All while maintaining decent intonation and action.

Point 3. Norlin Les Pauls aren't "The Grail" Les Paul. They are the player years and no one gives a shit about mods, you'll find them with Kahlers, Bigsbys, mini toggles etc etc etc. And you'll find them cheap. It's harder to find a stock Norlin at times, than it is to find a modded one. Depending on the year, a stock one will have T tops or Tim Shaws, both are excellent pickups, but not high output. You can recoup some of your expenses on the guitar selling the pickups if you don't like them.

Point 4. Standard vs. Custom. Standard = Maple Cap, Mah body, Rosewood finger board. Warm classic Les Paul tone. Custom = Maple Cap, Mah Body, Ebony Finger board, dressier binding and other aesthetic touches. More bite and attack in the notes from the Ebony board and looks nicer. I'm sure there's more cork to sniff there, but I find that having that simple "mental" note, makes my hunt a bit more simple as I'm open to both models speaking to me. Some re-issue customs will be available with Mahogany tops which are ala '50s in nature. Not my personal taste, but they have their place.

I hope you find this semi-educated collection of random factoids, that may possibly be pure and utter shit, helpful. I'm sure others will chime in and correct anything I've missed or was wrong on. But I gave it a shot!


Good luck in your 'Paul hunt! I'm getting a 93's headstock fixed for a player at the moment and am still on my hunt for my personal grail!

I'll start with the most important point that I forgot to make in my OP:

JDinSC":3fhsjlsu said:

Play them all and let one speak to you.

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I know the most important thing will be to play a bunch of them.

JDinSC":3fhsjlsu said:

Point 1. You don't want chambering/weight relief. 78-81 Were not weight relieved, did not have pancake bodies, and had three piece MAPLE necks with a volute.

Point 2. Headstock breaks, see pt 1 regarding three piece maple neck and volute. Those two attributes make for a strong neck that is less apt to breaking than the typical mahogany necks of late. The reasons Les Pauls are so prone to headstock breaks are the fact that the necks are built at an angle to the body (15* I think, but I may be wrong) and the length of the neck flows WITH the grain, the least strong construction type. The headstock on a Les Paul is at such an angle at the string break that it turns against the strength of the grain, allowing the break to split fibers. Visualize peeling string cheese instead of snapping a 2x4 and you have the reason the necks break. The maple neck on 78-81 has much denser grains, there-fore it is akin to the strength of a quartersawn fender neck, which can be used as a baseball bat, jack arm to lift a car or a zombie assault weapon. All while maintaining decent intonation and action.

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Good to know about the maple necks. I have noticed that many in that time frame have 'em. I'm trying to think about it, and I don't recall ever seeing one with a broken headstock.

JDinSC":3fhsjlsu said:

Point 3. Norlin Les Pauls aren't "The Grail" Les Paul. They are the player years and no one gives a shit about mods, you'll find them with Kahlers, Bigsbys, mini toggles etc etc etc. And you'll find them cheap. It's harder to find a stock Norlin at times, than it is to find a modded one. Depending on the year, a stock one will have T tops or Tim Shaws, both are excellent pickups, but not high output. You can recoup some of your expenses on the guitar selling the pickups if you don't like them.

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Norlin... had to look that up on Wikipedia.

JDinSC":3fhsjlsu said:

Point 4. Standard vs. Custom. Standard = Maple Cap, Mah body, Rosewood finger board. Warm classic Les Paul tone. Custom = Maple Cap, Mah Body, Ebony Finger board, dressier binding and other aesthetic touches. More bite and attack in the notes from the Ebony board and looks nicer. I'm sure there's more cork to sniff there, but I find that having that simple "mental" note, makes my hunt a bit more simple as I'm open to both models speaking to me. Some re-issue customs will be available with Mahogany tops which are ala '50s in nature. Not my personal taste, but they have their place.

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I did know about the mahogany tops for the black beauties, etc. I've only ever played LPs with a maple top, some I'm already a bit biased towards that.

Thanks for sharing!

Just gotta play a lot of them. Just because it was made prior to '81 doesn't always mean it's going to sound better than something more recent. My '89 sounds great and I'm assuming it's weight relieved. . .although it certainly doesn't feel like it.

No problem bud! I hope my brash and foul dispense of information wasn't too abrasive. My general gist is that they (Les Pauls) are wonderful guitars as a whole and you just have to know what you're looking for. I fell in love with a broken 1993 Standard the other day, picked it up for a steal and I'm still in honeymoon with it and I haven't heard a single note from it... LOL

I find that what it means and does for you is 100% of what's important and the rest of it can fly a kite.

I don't know much about Kalamazoo, hence why I didn't address it. I prefer to look like an ass about things I at least have a little knowledge on.

People censor serial numbers for the same reason you find $500 dollar alarm systems on $1500 dollar Honda Civics. Les Pauls are one of the most copied guitars in the world. It won't do much for someone to cover it, but it makes a seller feel better when they expose their high dollar guitar to the public. Speaking of copies, do some research on copies just so you know what to look for. Fortunately, copies are primarily made of contemporary models and if you're searching for vintage/semi vintage, you won't run into many. It's hard to build an authentic Les Paul, and even harder to build an authentic copy of a vintage one. Hence why a good '59 reproduction is 10k from some of the aftermarket builders and around 5k from Gibson for their modern interpretation.

A lot of the questions you're seeking answers to have been covered extensively on mylespaul.com - it's a great forum with some very knowledgeable cats on it.

3 types of body:
1. Solid back - the only drilling is for the routing of the electronics.
2. Weight Relieved - this is the "swiss cheese" concept where they drill a number of holes to simply remove the mass.
3. Chambering - a well routed back with open "chambers" totally dropping the weight and apparently making said guitar more resonant.

The whole thing that needs to be understood is that, aside from the fact that there are many winners and many boat anchors in the Les Paul family, the whole notion of weight relief and chambering comes from the fact that lightweight mahogany is more expensive and harder to acquire than the heavier shit. So Gibson - whilst cutting corners - started making guitars with the lesser quality, heavier mahogany backs and in order to compensate for the mass, drilled a few holes to pull off a pound of weight. Then they ran with the idea, and decided to carve the piss out of the backs (whilst still using crappier heavier woods) and claim that this "chambering" was a move forward in the resonance and response of the instrument. Granted, it does hold some water that the chambering could assist in the sonic qualities of the guitar, but lest we forget the original M.O. of Gibson was to continue using lesser woods, maintain an acceptable weight, and still charge kick-to-the-nuts prices.

The Customs and Reissues are all - er, for the most part - solid mahogany backs. I've got quite the army of Lesters, and the Reissues and the Customs are all incredible players, and all solid back guitars. Interestingly enough, the '57 Goldtop and '59 Lemonburst are the lightest out of the bunch I have, and were also the most expensive.

It's a big ol' field of study out there... wade cautiously.

And the only other thing I can say about Lesters and the argument about playing 'em to know for sure - my stance remains the same!! Unless the wood is shyte or the neck is fuct, everything else can be fixed, replaced, modified, or tweaked to make it a tremendous player. The most crucial piece on a Les Paul is the nut IMHO. Due to the standard 17 degree neck angle pitch, as well as the spring spread to heads angles, the nut is the most crucial and often problematic part of a Les Paul. Get a properly cut nut, or a good replacement (graphite, brass, whatever) nut, and the guitar can go from lemon to ace in no time flat.

Hope this helps.
Mo

Simple answer is to play whatever you can get your hands on. I wouldn't worry too much about chambering. I have a 2012 trad + with the swiss cheese holes but is a tone monster and weighs 9.6 lbs.

Start by finding out what type of neck you like, 50's, 60's, asymmetrical etc and look for models with the neck you like. I prefer fatter necks so any 60's slim taper was out the window hence narrowing the search.

There are no "good years" or "bad years". You can get a gem and the guitar next in line build the same day, same year is a PoS.

Bottom line is you are spending YOUR money, not dudes on a guitar forum who gladly to tell you to buy what THEY like or HAVE, not what you want.

Customs and Standards (Including Traditionals) are different animals and not just cosmetic. Re-issues (R7, R8, R9 etc) are different than US production models.

I wouldn't worry about pickups, they can easily be changed if you don't like them. Pick one that feels good in your hands and is resonant acoustically.

I also suggest checking the MLP forum thread titled LP 101 and read through it. I was in the same boat as you back in early 2012 when I decided to buy my first LP after 30+ years of playing strats and super strats. I played it 98% of the time and bought a 57 RI BB Custom in March of this year.

I also suggest look at used instead of new....you new guitar turns into a used guitar anyway as soon as it leaves the store

Norlin is controversial. The pancakes are hated by some but some sound great. After a half dozen I have two now. An 81 that has some good aging and plays great. A 2013 LP premium plus fireburst that looks utterly amazing.

I agree with the maple neck being a good thing. The solid body 81 with maple neck has a great balanced tone.

Play them all. I also have a 76 SG. I like the old guitars more than reissues.buying an older refinished guitar saves you tons of money and you get the 30-40 year old lumber. I have the original Tim Shaw buckers from my 81 and it has Motor City's. I do not like the burst buckers in the 2013. Maybe put the Shaws in there.

Good luck on the tone quest. Play some old refinished guitars, great players out there.

Ventura":3kl711mq said:

A lot of the questions you're seeking answers to have been covered extensively on mylespaul.com - it's a great forum with some very knowledgeable cats on it.

3 types of body:
1. Solid back - the only drilling is for the routing of the electronics.
2. Weight Relieved - this is the "swiss cheese" concept where they drill a number of holes to simply remove the mass.
3. Chambering - a well routed back with open "chambers" totally dropping the weight and apparently making said guitar more resonant.

The whole thing that needs to be understood is that, aside from the fact that there are many winners and many boat anchors in the Les Paul family, the whole notion of weight relief and chambering comes from the fact that lightweight mahogany is more expensive and harder to acquire than the heavier shit. So Gibson - whilst cutting corners - started making guitars with the lesser quality, heavier mahogany backs and in order to compensate for the mass, drilled a few holes to pull off a pound of weight. Then they ran with the idea, and decided to carve the piss out of the backs (whilst still using crappier heavier woods) and claim that this "chambering" was a move forward in the resonance and response of the instrument. Granted, it does hold some water that the chambering could assist in the sonic qualities of the guitar, but lest we forget the original M.O. of Gibson was to continue using lesser woods, maintain an acceptable weight, and still charge kick-to-the-nuts prices.

The Customs and Reissues are all - er, for the most part - solid mahogany backs. I've got quite the army of Lesters, and the Reissues and the Customs are all incredible players, and all solid back guitars. Interestingly enough, the '57 Goldtop and '59 Lemonburst are the lightest out of the bunch I have, and were also the most expensive.

It's a big ol' field of study out there... wade cautiously.

And the only other thing I can say about Lesters and the argument about playing 'em to know for sure - my stance remains the same!! Unless the wood is shyte or the neck is fuct, everything else can be fixed, replaced, modified, or tweaked to make it a tremendous player. The most crucial piece on a Les Paul is the nut IMHO. Due to the standard 17 degree neck angle pitch, as well as the spring spread to heads angles, the nut is the most crucial and often problematic part of a Les Paul. Get a properly cut nut, or a good replacement (graphite, brass, whatever) nut, and the guitar can go from lemon to ace in no time flat.

Hope this helps.
Mo

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Mo Knows! I bloody forgot to mention the nut! Gah!

I own a slew of pauls and played 100s. A lot of those heavy ass 70s pauls suck. They can have low resonance, I have a theory but I could be wrong but I think heavy wood impedes the sound from traveling in a musical way. They also destroy your shoulder.

Alright... Well given all I've thrown out there, and what y'all have bounced back. I think this one is worth my time checking out. Agree?

I don't love the fact that the finish was removed from the back of the neck, but if it was sealed back up, I think it should be fine. It definitely proves that it's maple.

barnesjd":2xsvhgsk said:

Alright... Well given all I've thrown out there, and what y'all have bounced back. I think this one is worth my time checking out. Agree?

I don't love the fact that the finish was removed from the back of the neck, but if it was sealed back up, I think it should be fine. It definitely proves that it's maple.

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Definitely go play it, it's a good price for a Custom regardless of the year if it's in really good shape.

JDinSC":1cnszthm said:

Definitely go play it, it's a good price for a Custom regardless of the year if it's in really good shape.

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My thoughts exactly. It's probably about a 2-hr drive. It'll be an excuse to browse around the guitar shops in B'ham anyway.

barnesjd":t7d4l2dl said:

JDinSC":t7d4l2dl said:

Definitely go play it, it's a good price for a Custom regardless of the year if it's in really good shape.

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My thoughts exactly. It's probably about a 2-hr drive. It'll be an excuse to browse around the guitar shops in B'ham anyway.

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I have driven upwards of 8 hours to buy a guitar. The guitar that was worth a day and a half of drive time was worth every minute of it.

barnesjd":34v0ipxf said:

Alright... Well given all I've thrown out there, and what y'all have bounced back. I think this one is worth my time checking out. Agree?

I don't love the fact that the finish was removed from the back of the neck, but if it was sealed back up, I think it should be fine. It definitely proves that it's maple.

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that would be what the call a clown burst, not desirable by all

Shawn Lutz":2503i3z4 said:

that would be what the call a clown burst, not desirable by all

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I've not heard that before. I don't think it looks bad at all.

It'll go well with that ugly-assed Orange cab I got.

Rule #1: get Bare Knuckle pickups and at least 500k pots
Rule #2: do NOT make your les paul sound like crap by setting the strings as low as possible
Rule #3: no floyd roses, for god's sake
Rule #4: repaired necks can be very reliable, but you better be sure you can get a refund just in case it's not a stable one
Rule #5: do not ignore Rule #1

ericsabbath":3bxax3py said:

Rule #1: get Bare Knuckle pickups and at least 500k pots
Rule #2: do not not make your les paul sound like crap by setting the strings as low as possible
Rule #3: no floyd roses, for god's sake
Rule #4: repaired necks can be very reliable, but you better be sure you can get a refund just in case it's not a stable one
Rule #5: do not ignore Rule #1

Click to expand...

All that, especially #1.

Got Holydivers in mine and it kicks all ass.

Steinmetzify":146bmaoq said:

ericsabbath":146bmaoq said:

Rule #1: get Bare Knuckle pickups and at least 500k pots
Rule #2: do not not make your les paul sound like crap by setting the strings as low as possible
Rule #3: no floyd roses, for god's sake
Rule #4: repaired necks can be very reliable, but you better be sure you can get a refund just in case it's not a stable one
Rule #5: do not ignore Rule #1

Click to expand...

All that, especially #1.

Got Holydivers in mine and it kicks all ass.

Click to expand...

been making lots of plans these days on raising money for a custom short les paul

Steinmetzify":16tu70s9 said:

ericsabbath":16tu70s9 said:

Rule #1: get Bare Knuckle pickups and at least 500k pots
Rule #2: do not not make your les paul sound like crap by setting the strings as low as possible
Rule #3: no floyd roses, for god's sake
Rule #4: repaired necks can be very reliable, but you better be sure you can get a refund just in case it's not a stable one
Rule #5: do not ignore Rule #1

Click to expand...

All that, especially #1.

Got Holydivers in mine and it kicks all ass.

Click to expand...

I've been thinking about getting a Black Dog and 550K for my Studio.