What do I need to complete a wet/dry rig?

Hi folks,

I’m interested in building a wet/dry rig. I plan to use my Friedman BE 100 and matchung 4x12 cab. For effects I’m thinking a Lexicon PCM 70 or maybe TC Electronics G Force. What else do I need to comolete the rig? I don’t want something too complicated. Think I will need a power amp, and for that I ‘ll probably get a Matrix amp.

How many additional cabs will I need? Any other equipment that I’ll need to add to comolete the rig?

Your feedback is greatly appreciated.

Some guys seem fine with wet-dry, in that case you'd only need the FX unit, a power amp and a single mono cab. For wet/dry/wet, where you get the stereo image from the FX with the dry cab in the middle, you need one cab on each side. The power amp probably is in stereo anyway. You can probably get away with a 1x12" for the wet stuff.

The Friedman has a line out, right? If not, you would need a line tap from the speaker signal, like the Suhr Iso Line-out.

You don't need a mixer or any additional equipment if you're just going to run one FX unit, but keep in mind that the PCM70 isn't a guitar multi-FX in the same way that the G-Force is. Most guys run 100% wet in the wet cabs, some blend in a bit of dry with the risk of some phase cancellation.

Dave L":3bz3j3gb said:

Some guys seem fine with wet-dry, in that case you'd only need the FX unit, a power amp and a single mono cab. For wet/dry/wet, where you get the stereo image from the FX with the dry cab in the middle, you need one cab on each side. The power amp probably is in stereo anyway. You can probably get away with a 1x12" for the wet stuff.

The Friedman has a line out, right? If not, you would need a line tap from the speaker signal, like the Suhr Iso Line-out.

You don't need a mixer or any additional equipment if you're just going to run one FX unit, but keep in mind that the PCM70 isn't a guitar multi-FX in the same way that the G-Force is. Most guys run 100% wet in the wet cabs, some blend in a bit of dry with the risk of some phase cancellation.

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Exactly this!!!!!

But if you can, costs, space not being an issue, go for the full WDW effect, it is worth it.

Gives a huge stereo image, very 3D. Like a false surround effect. Very awseome with chorus or detune and some ping pong delays, wicked!!!

IMHO, wet-wet is better than wet-dry (especially with the inherent phase issue possibility of wet-dry). I fully agree with everyone else that wet-dry-wet is even better.

In either case, I think the effects need to be in stereo, especially with units like the PCM70 or G-Force. Running them in mono isn't just missing half the signal, it's also missing all the magical things that happen in the space between the speakers.

I run both wet and dry in my “wet” cabinets. I typically use four 4x12’s and my wet cabs are on the outside. I never have phase issues. FWIW, I use a mixer to blend in the effects and dry signals.

psychodave":1dhaw78z said:

I run both wet and dry in my “wet” cabinets. I typically use four 4x12’s and my wet cabs are on the outside. I never have phase issues. FWIW, I use a mixer to blend in the effects and dry signals.

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Yep, me, too. Don't have phase issues and do use a mixer.

I think the only danger of a phase issue is when you're taking the line out into the effects, not using the effects in the loop but rather only sending the effect's output to a second amp, and then use the effect's mix at anything less than 100% wet. Using an analog mixer circumvents this because the dry signal in the wet cab doesn't go through an AD/DA convertion. It's the convertors in one dry path and not in the other that introduce a very small amount of delay that can appear as a phase issue (depending on how far apart the cabs are, too).

Basically, in wet/dry or wet/dry/wet rigs, the dry signal in the wet cabs has to remain in the analog domain. Wet/wet rigs don't suffer from this problem because the dry signal either goes through the AD/DA or it doesn't. At least that's the way it was always explained to me.

That make sense. I run my effects at 100%. If not, it would sound crappy.

Any chance that you can post pictures of your wet/dry/wet rig?

Here's a picture of mine....

Out the line out of the amp, into the MLC mixer, out the MLC to the FX Unit(s), out FX back to mixer, out mixer to Matrix GT1000, out Matrix to wet cabs




here's the back side of another W/D/W setup I had. Same concept, but I used the RJM for a mixer. You need a separate splitter from the amp line out with this setup so I used an RJM tone saver.

Amp line out to tone saver, tone saver splits signal so one out goes to FX and dry signal goes to RJM mixer. FX out goes to the RJM where the signal is mixed. Out the RJM to the Fryette 2/90/2 and from there to the wet cabs.



I used that with the Ultralead and Uberschall with the Fryette FB cab for the dry and the bogner/splawn cabs as the wet. The other amps belonged to a friend.

Thank you so much for posting pictures of your rig!!!!! I want to put a similar rig together, so would it be ok to shoot you a PM later on with a couple of questions on how everything is connected?

mhenson42":2k57po7o said:

Here's a picture of mine....

Out the line out of the amp, into the MLC mixer, out the MLC to the FX Unit(s), out FX back to mixer, out mixer to Matrix GT1000, out Matrix to wet cabs

here's the back side of another W/D/W setup I had. Same concept, but I used the RJM for a mixer. You need a separate splitter from the amp line out with this setup so I used an RJM tone saver.

Amp line out to tone saver, tone saver splits signal so one out goes to FX and dry signal goes to RJM mixer. FX out goes to the RJM where the signal is mixed. Out the RJM to the Fryette 2/90/2 and from there to the wet cabs.

I used that with the Ultralead and Uberschall with the Fryette FB cab for the dry and the bogner/splawn cabs as the wet. The other amps belonged to a friend.

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Econ":3857n3ow said:

Thank you so much for posting pictures of your rig!!!!! I want to put a similar rig together, so would it be ok to shoot you a PM later on with a couple of questions on how everything is connected?

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No problem. To give you a better idea... Here's a more detailed signal flow I put together for an Axe FX and Eventide H9...

I'd be happy to post some pics of mine, too, but I'm out of town for a few days and don't have them (or the rig) with me. Like mhenson42, I think the signal flow diagram helps understand it better than pictures because it shows where the wires are connected better than cables that may be hard to trace from just a picture. I've got one of those, too, and will send it along in a few days, too. Finally, I'm in the process of replacing some components, so this is, once again, a work in progress.

Here's the gist of the signal flow...

guitar >> RJM Effects Gizmo Loops 1-4 In

The first four loops are used for a booster, vibe, flanger, and phaser. These are all analog and I think they sound best in front of the amp.

RJM Effects Gizmo Loops 1-4 Out >> Amp In

For W/D/W, I'll use whatever amp I'm currently using. If it has a compensated out, I'll use that or the effects send for the amp's output. If it doesn't have either, I'll use a DI to pull a line out between the amp and the speaker. If I just need a W/W rig, I'll use a pre-amp instead of an amp. Mesa Boogie Studio Pre is my favorite, but I've used several. Nothing is returned to the amp, in either case. For W/D/W, the amp is connected directly to its own cabinet(s) (and possibly a DI, as above).

Amp Speaker Out >> 1 or more cabs
Amp Line Out >> RJM Effects Gizmo Loops 5-8 In

I use each loop to switch the send to a different processor. Previously, this has been a Yamaha SPX-90, Fulltone TERC (also used to pass dry signal when it bypass), an Eventide H3000DSE, and an Eventide GTR4000 (with the standard DSP4000 presets card). Only the sends from the RJM loops are connected. I don't use the returns here, so the original signal passes to all four sends and the sends are activated by the loops. This allows any tails from delays or reverbs to spill-over.

Effects Outs >> Rane SM26 Mixer #1 In 1-8

I run stereo outs from each of the effects into the 8 inputs of the mixer. If I want dry signal in the wet cabs (I almost always do), I can turn the TERC on and activate its bypass.

Rane SM26 Mixer #1 Stereo Out >> RJM Effects Gizmo Loops 9-12

As with loop 5-8, I only run the sends and pass the signal along to the next loops. I don't have anything in the returns to these loops, either. Since this is now a stereo signal, the first two loops (9-10) are just sent to the second mixer so I can pass the dry/effect signal on. The third loop (11) feeds an Eventide Eclipse and the fourth loop (12) feeds a Lexicon PCM92. As above, this allows spill-over from these effects.

Effects Out >> Rane SM26 Mixer #2 In 1-6

As above, if I want dry signal, I'll activate the pass-through loops (9-10 in channels 1-2). The Eventide and Lexicon are connected to channels 3-6. The other two channels I have configured as line balancers so I can feed the H3000 and GTR4000 with a balanced signal (that what they're designed to use).

Rane SM26 Mixer #2 Out >> Mesa Boogie Switch-Track 395 >> 2 or more cabs

I prefer to run each side of the 395 into its own cabinet, but I've used it running into one stereo cabinet (W/W or W/D works better that way, W/D/W, not so much).

Anyway, I hope this makes at least a little sense. I'm sure pictures and diagrams will help. I'll admit, this is a fairly complex rig with pedals before and two tiers of effects after. However, the concept can easily be scaled down to accomodate much more simple rigs. I'm working on another one now that will be much more similar to mhenson42's rig than the one I described above. I can provide some info on that one, too.

Finally, I'd be more than happy to help you set up your rig. PM is fine with me, but if someone else could learn from this, I wouldn't mind using threads, either. So much of what I learned about racks and W/D/W rigs, I learned from the Huge Racks, Inc fourm (which is no defunct unfortunately). There are more than a few members of that forum that are here now and just might chime in with something none of us had ever thought of before.

I'll be looking forward to the future conversations and I'll post those pics and diagrams as soon as I can.

Agreed on keeping discussion in the thread, please. I'm in the midst of building up a rig out of my collection of gear I have setting around the house, amps, cabs, etc. Is it ok if I jump into the thread and use it for ideas for my own rig or should I start a different thread?

Absolutely OK if you jump in! This thread (as long as the OP doesn't have a problem with that) or another thread, either way. I certainly don't know everything there is to know about rigs like this, won't even claim to be an expert, but I'm more than happy to share what I know and help any way I can.

I've learned a ton of things on this forum, too, and I'd enjoy the chance to pass some of that along.

Just to add to the discussion, I'd like to add that all of this applies to pedal-based rigs, just as much as racks. It applies to parallel loops, too, because that's just a way of mixing the output of an effect back into the amp (it's already a mixer).

Anyway, I'll post some pics and diagrams later tonight (with any luck).

I echo Churchhill’s words. This site is about learning. Feel free to jump in at any time.

ChurchHill":3kp7ymha said:

Absolutely OK if you jump in! This thread (as long as the OP doesn't have a problem with that) or another thread, either way. I certainly don't know everything there is to know about rigs like this, won't even claim to be an expert, but I'm more than happy to share what I know and help any way I can.

I've learned a ton of things on this forum, too, and I'd enjoy the chance to pass some of that along.

Just to add to the discussion, I'd like to add that all of this applies to pedal-based rigs, just as much as racks. It applies to parallel loops, too, because that's just a way of mixing the output of an effect back into the amp (it's already a mixer).

Anyway, I'll post some pics and diagrams later tonight (with any luck).

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Econ":3s9gs3pa said:

I echo Churchhill’s words. This site is about learning. Feel free to jump in at any time.

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I most just didn't want to clutter up your thread with a second rig discussion. I was about to start one of my own. Anyhow, I'll put together a post on what I'm thinking and solicit some ideas.

I really have two amps I'm thinking about building stereo-type rigs around at home. I'm trying to figure out how I'm going to manage it without getting too carried away with new/additional gear.

Rig #1: Soldano SLO into a couple of Marshall 4x12's. First, this amp doesn't need a lot of effects and I definitely do not want to muddy up things with too much extra. What I have going right now is the following:

OD pedal -> flanger pedal -> rack volume -> rack wah -> SLO -> Marshall 4x12 I'm using a Voodoo Labs GCX to pull things in/out as needed, and eventually plan to integrate the channel switching, but haven't tried that yet. This the straight-forward rig that I've used for nearly 20 years. It sounds great. I'd like some time-based effects and while I don't think the loop is as dire as many claim, it's still weak enough that I don't want to use it. So, right now I pull from the DI out:

SLO DI -> Rocktron Reflifex -> Rocktron Intellifex -> Rocktron Velocity 300 -> Marshall 4x12

That gives me a nice W/D rig. I sum everything to a mono mix on the wet side. It keeps the punch of the SLO in the dry side, but gives me some echo/delay as needed on the wet side, and for cleans I plan to eventually dial up some chorus and/or flange from the rack units. So far, I'm only playing with presets on these two units, so haven't really dialed anything permanent in.

Here's my conundrum. It does seem like a true stereo set up would be better, but I don't have a great way to pull that off here. I need to dump the SLO output to a speaker, or get some sort of load unit if I want a true stereo setup, or am I missing something? Should I just stick with W/D with this rig? It's simple and straight-forward, and really the SLO doesn't need much for effects.

A few other options:

I have two Mesa 2x12s. I could run those as W/W stereo on the outside and run a single Marshall 4x12 as dry. That would allow me to built a true W/D/W rig, just with speakers on the outside that are different from center.

I have a number of other rack units/processors setting around that are options if anyone has some good ideas of how to use them. I just don't want to overload a rack with a bunch of stuff and not use it!

List:

• Lexicon MPX-1*
  Rane SM26S splitter/mixer*
  Alesis Quadraverb **
  TC G Major **
  Ibanez SDR-1000+ **
  Ibanez AD202 analog delays (x2) **
  Digitech IPS-33 pitch shifter **
  Rocktron Prorax Chorus **
  Rockman Echo **

* Just bought these with the idea of replacing the Intellifex with them. The MPX-1 is true stereo, so I think it only makes sense if I actually have stereo effects.

** Seriously contemplating whether I need any of these around, or whether I should sell them off to make room. Ideas, suggestions, comments all welcome.


This is about the time I usually get frustrated, toss all the rack gear aside and just plug in with a couple of pedals and play!

I mentioned Rig #1 above. I could also build something around my Mesa Mk III and the two Mesa 2x12s I mentioned above. Maybe that'd be easier. I dunno. I have all the same gear available. My original goal was to build a little rack system and move it back/forth between the two amp/cab setups. I'd program up different patches for whatever processors I end up using. Anyhow, I've put something over in the rack subforum on TGP, and it helped me think through some things, but I'm still struggling between trying to do things D/W, W/W stereo, or W/D/W for both systems.

Sorry for cluttering things up. Thanks to anyone who reads through that and offers any thoughts/insight.

^ add a stereo poweramp. Go W/D/W and use the MPX1 into the poweramp. Marshall 4x12 center, Mesa 2x12s on outside wet cabs. I have an MPX 1 in my rig and love it in the wet cabs, and a MPX G2 running 4cm in front of and in the loop of an amp, with the R1 footcontroller to switch it.