Bruce Egnater said FACK YA FEELINGS Randall Smith fanbois šŸ’€

Id have to trust things that come from highly experienced designer/builders than the shit you find people adding to Wikipedia anymore.
Thing is, some amp builders may have an agenda to promote themselves (and they think slagging on Randall helps), whereas some randos on Wikipedia are less likely to have a similar agenda.
 
Let's not forget the 5150....Ed said to Hartley...."Here! Clone this...." and handed Peavey one of his 2 SLOs. Ed was pissed he had to actually buy the SLOs; most builders gave him free shit. Soldano couldn't afford to give amps away.
Whatā€™s the source or evidence for this claim? The Eddie being pissed that he had to pay Soldano so he went to Peavey and had them rip him off part.
 
Thing is, some amp builders may have an agenda to promote themselves (and they think slagging on Randall helps), whereas some randos on Wikipedia are less likely to have a similar agenda.

Bruce isn't the type. Very reserved builder.
Never been one to hog any glory.
In fact he rarely says anything.
Probably just had enough of the cork sniffery.


Meanwhile Wikipedia is full of absolute bullshit across the board. For many things. And its by no means a standard for accurate information anymore. Don't think it ever was... šŸ˜’
 
Those are fair game though. Tube manufactures release schematics specifically to entice designers to use their tubes in their designs. The same is true of transistors, modern IC's, etc. They want you to buy their product, and part of their marketing is to provide starting circuits for you to use.


Just saying, that's where it began for the very most part.
 
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Actually, if you do a little research... theres alot of evidence toward it. And we know RCA, GE, Western Electric did the original... leo made the amp with some changes....

Yeah pretty sure I'd bet on this one. šŸ‘Œ
I shouldn't have to do the research, you made the claim. Maybe you should have done your own research. Anyhoo, I went ahead and downloaded the original 1937 RCA tube book. None of those schematics are anywhere close to a tweed Fender amp.
 
I always wondered why Bruce and others made such an issue about this when literally everybody copies something from someone else. Like, you can't attack Randall, but stay silent about James Brown when he did the exact same thing with the 5150.

But I guess that thing about patents was the real reason why. Most other people who "rip off" circuits don't seem to to be as protective of their "intellectual property" as Mesa is
 
I wish they'd be more specific as to what the DR copied off the SLO.

They say "preamp", but I'm pretty sure the tone stack is different. At least on Modern mode. So what do they mean by "preamp"?

The preamp is not that different from a Rev C Dual Rectifier. The controls act pretty much the same in the Modern Red mode and an SLO. The power sections are different.
 
My friend Tom gave Ed a black eye. Jerry Cantrell was there. Apparently Ed said something Tom didn't like.


i want to know what he said lol. there was a snippet on youtube of guys talking about eddie being a dick i remember watching that i cant seem to find now, those stories are much more interesting to me than what parts were in his amp
 
RCA --> Fender (bassman) --> Marshall
Univox (organ amp) ---> Vox

everything else is derivative.
 
Iā€™ll say this and leave it be - longer post, so scroll on by if you donā€™t want to read, haha.

<rant>

Every guitarist is much better off because builders over the decades have borrowed, copied, been inspired by, etcā€¦other designs. Do they all sound the same? No, and thatā€™s what matters.

Too many guys look at designs on paper, read a schematic, and subsequently listen with their eyes instead of their ears. Did the Marshall sound like a Fender? No. Does the Recto sound like an SLO? No. Does a 5150 sound like either of them? No. Thereā€™s a lot more that goes into how a final product sounds than what you see on paper, but thatā€™s all some people want to focus on because people love to be offended online.

Some builders and manufacturers - like Randall Smith and Mesa - had much more business acumen, put out a variety of products, listened to what players wanted, and changed with the times. Itā€™s why they had tremendous success while others had modest success by comparison.

Letā€™s look at Soldano for example since itā€™s everyoneā€™s favorite talking point. Soldano dropped the SLO and within a few years of its release was charging around $3200 by the early ā€˜90s with a (not good) loop and line out. Thatā€™s $7200-$7400 current day money. He also released the X88 preamp, a concept that Soldano got from Bob Bradshaw. We donā€™t talk about that though. Bob approached Soldano with the preamp concept (not circuit), had them build them, then Soldano had a successful product that was essentially Bobā€™s idea. Meanwhile Soldano sold them to Bob for just a hair under retail, so Bob made no money on them despite bringing the concept to Soldano. But, thatā€™s apparently cool. Anyway.

The Dual Rectifier comes out priced around $1200 compared to the $3200 of the SLO. It was originally targeting the Sunset strip crowd, but Mesa saw times were changing and listened to player feedback. Within around 1.5 years of release, Mesa had already went through 5 revisions because itā€™s what players wanted. Meanwhile, the Soldano remained unchanged.

The Rectifier was arguably the most successful and iconic amp of its time. It owned the airwaves in the ā€˜90s and early ā€˜00s. Mesa still evolved the line and the 3 channel version was born, which also went through 4 revisions in the first couple of years. Meanwhile, 15+ years later, the Soldano remained unchanged. They also had virtually nothing that wasnā€™t a spin off or variation of the SLO.

By 2010, Mesa evolved the Rectifier *again* based on player feedback. Countless options added, revisions made, etc. Meanwhile, nearly 24 years later, the Soldano remained unchanged.

By the time Soldano was sold, it was 32+ years since the release of the SLO. The Recto was on its 14th-15th revision and its 3rd major iteration and adapted to countless changes in the musical landscape. The SLO hadnā€™t changed at all, but still cost more than double what the Recto did. What else did Soldano do that was significant during those 30 years? Not much. The amp and circuit stubbornly was kept the same despite user tastes changing numerous times, and in Soup Nazi fashion, you either liked it as-is or moved on. The more years that passed, the less value and options you got for the money as other amps advanced.

While Iā€™m glad Soldano had that 1 cool idea 35+ years ago, that doesnā€™t breed long-term success or mean you have business savvy. If you refuse to change, adapt to player feedback, or even try to expand your product line beyond - basically - cheaper variations of your 1 amp idea, then what should you expect? You saw the success others were having. You saw the changes in the music landscape. You had literal decades to do R&D and make other amps. Donā€™t bitch and complain because companies like Mesa continued to evolve and listen to players, expanded their product portfolio, and sold countless amps for it.

Complaints about Mesa having success vs Soldano because an amp has a similar preamp section but sounds completely different would be like Marshall complaining about all the British style manufacturers, or Vox complaining about Matchless in the ā€˜90s, or Fender complaining about Marshall, or etc. If you donā€™t like it, then stop bitching and whining and make an affordable product that appeals to a wider user base. If you want to stubbornly keep your product the same, then youā€™ll forever be a niche product for a niche crowd.

This isnā€™t a knock to Soldano. I have an OG SLO right beside me as I type, and theyā€™re great amps. But cā€™mon. If some of these Mesa critics spent even half as much time over the last 35 years listening to what players want and doing R&D on new designs for new offerings as they did acting personally aggrieved and offended, maybe they would have moved as many amps as Mesa over the years.

</rant>

Agree, disagree - donā€™t care. Just my $0.02 on the ā€œIā€™m offended because others created something similar to my idea but had more success than meā€ crowd.
 
Iā€™ll say this and leave it be - longer post, so scroll on by if you donā€™t want to read, haha.

<rant>

Every guitarist is much better off because builders over the decades have borrowed, copied, been inspired by, etcā€¦other designs. Do they all sound the same? No, and thatā€™s what matters.

Too many guys look at designs on paper, read a schematic, and subsequently listen with their eyes instead of their ears. Did the Marshall sound like a Fender? No. Does the Recto sound like an SLO? No. Does a 5150 sound like either of them? No. Thereā€™s a lot more that goes into how a final product sounds than what you see on paper, but thatā€™s all some people want to focus on because people love to be offended online.

Some builders and manufacturers - like Randall Smith and Mesa - had much more business acumen, put out a variety of products, listened to what players wanted, and changed with the times. Itā€™s why they had tremendous success while others had modest success by comparison.

Letā€™s look at Soldano for example since itā€™s everyoneā€™s favorite talking point. Soldano dropped the SLO and within a few years of its release was charging around $3200 by the early ā€˜90s with a (not good) loop and line out. Thatā€™s $7200-$7400 current day money. He also released the X88 preamp, a concept that Soldano got from Bob Bradshaw. We donā€™t talk about that though. Bob approached Soldano with the preamp concept (not circuit), had them build them, then Soldano had a successful product that was essentially Bobā€™s idea. Meanwhile Soldano sold them to Bob for just a hair under retail, so Bob made no money on them despite bringing the concept to Soldano. But, thatā€™s apparently cool. Anyway.

The Dual Rectifier comes out priced around $1200 compared to the $3200 of the SLO. It was originally targeting the Sunset strip crowd, but Mesa saw times were changing and listened to player feedback. Within around 1.5 years of release, Mesa had already went through 5 revisions because itā€™s what players wanted. Meanwhile, the Soldano remained unchanged.

The Rectifier was arguably the most successful and iconic amp of its time. It owned the airwaves in the ā€˜90s and early ā€˜00s. Mesa still evolved the line and the 3 channel version was born, which also went through 4 revisions in the first couple of years. Meanwhile, 15+ years later, the Soldano remained unchanged. They also had virtually nothing that wasnā€™t a spin off or variation of the SLO.

By 2010, Mesa evolved the Rectifier *again* based on player feedback. Countless options added, revisions made, etc. Meanwhile, nearly 24 years later, the Soldano remained unchanged.

By the time Soldano was sold, it was 32+ years since the release of the SLO. The Recto was on its 14th-15th revision and its 3rd major iteration and adapted to countless changes in the musical landscape. The SLO hadnā€™t changed at all, but still cost more than double what the Recto did. What else did Soldano do that was significant during those 30 years? Not much. The amp and circuit stubbornly was kept the same despite user tastes changing numerous times, and in Soup Nazi fashion, you either liked it as-is or moved on. The more years that passed, the less value and options you got for the money as other amps advanced.

While Iā€™m glad Soldano had that 1 cool idea 35+ years ago, that doesnā€™t breed long-term success or mean you have business savvy. If you refuse to change, adapt to player feedback, or even try to expand your product line beyond - basically - cheaper variations of your 1 amp idea, then what should you expect? You saw the success others were having. You saw the changes in the music landscape. You had literal decades to do R&D and make other amps. Donā€™t bitch and complain because companies like Mesa continued to evolve and listen to players, expanded their product portfolio, and sold countless amps for it.

Complaints about Mesa having success vs Soldano because an amp has a similar preamp section but sounds completely different would be like Marshall complaining about all the British style manufacturers, or Vox complaining about Matchless in the ā€˜90s, or Fender complaining about Marshall, or etc. If you donā€™t like it, then stop bitching and whining and make an affordable product that appeals to a wider user base. If you want to stubbornly keep your product the same, then youā€™ll forever be a niche product for a niche crowd.

This isnā€™t a knock to Soldano. I have an OG SLO right beside me as I type, and theyā€™re great amps. But cā€™mon. If some of these Mesa critics spent even half as much time over the last 35 years listening to what players want and doing R&D on new designs for new offerings as they did acting personally aggrieved and offended, maybe they would have moved as many amps as Mesa over the years.

</rant>

Agree, disagree - donā€™t care. Just my $0.02 on the ā€œIā€™m offended because others created something similar to my idea but had more success than meā€ crowd.
Great post!
 
Marshall copied the 59 Fender Bassman. With some changes, however. The British players wanted Fenders but they were hard to get. So Marshall, who was a drummer and owned a Music store, hired a few radio tech grads (young dudes, 20 yrs old or so) and had them clone a Bassman. And it began......
The JTM-45 right? That's the Bassman clone I believe. They do kinda sound similar. I owned a 64' or 65' Bassman and I could definitely cop that JTM-45 vibe when it was cranked.
 
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