20th Shiva Effects loop volume drop...? Tone loss too

[Adambomb]

So I'm wondering why this is. I only run a TC Halp of Fame and Flashback in loop and it degrades the sound so much with volume loss. Even with a small 6" cable in the loop it's the same volume drop. Is there anything I can do? I mean not only is it a volume drop, but it's not near as punchy and bright like nothing in the loop. And I lose high end with the loop on.

Any loop mods or anything? This is new 2012 20th Shiva so it's supposed to have the new and "improved" loop. Any help please. Thanks

 

[SLOgriff]

I use the TC Flashback and HOF in the loops of my Uberschall and Ecstasy and they work and sound great! Make sure your "Mix" level is turned up on the back of the amp (if there is one). Plus, check the 12AX7 that runs the loop as well.

By the way it's tone "LOSS" not lose.....

 

[Adambomb]

I use the TC Flashback and HOF in the loops of my Uberschall and Ecstasy and they work and sound great! Make sure your "Mix" level is turned up on the back of the amp (if there is one). Plus, check the 12AX7 that runs the loop as well.

By the way it's tone "LOSS" not lose.....

No mix level on 20th Shiva, man I wish there was. Yea I was gonna change the tube out first. I'm use to the Mesa Boogie loops, way better. My bad I was driving... Loss.. I know.

 

[rlord1974]

Are you using the 'Pedal Send' jack, not the 'Rack Send' jack?

 

[Adambomb]

Are you using the 'Pedal Send' jack, not the 'Rack Send' jack?

Yes I'm using the pedal send. The rack send is way hotter. You think my jacks are mislabeled? The rack sent is really hot and the pedal send drops the volume a bit. Wish there was a loop level knob on back of amp. I gotta make the loop work better somehow cause I use a few "must have" pedals like delay and chorus.

 

[djpatb]

When they flipped the chassis tubes up on the 20th, they didn't switch the labels on the Pedal/Rack jacks until they caught the error.
Send Pedal should be on the bottom/Send Rack above it.

 

[Adambomb]

When they flipped the chassis tubes up on the 20th, they didn't switch the labels on the Pedal/Rack jacks until they caught the error.
Send Pedal should be on the bottom/Send Rack above it.

My 20th Shiva was made 4 months ago and is labeled correct.

 

[Ventura]

It's a tube buffered loop. Make sure the assigned preamp tube is replaced - they can go wonky at any time.

Furthermore, you're going full wet and full level, correct?

 

[Adambomb]

It's a tube buffered loop. Make sure the assigned preamp tube is replaced - they can go wonky at any time.

Furthermore, you're going full wet and full level, correct?

Yea I have changed the effect loop preamp tube and made it a little better. I'm running only a TC Flashback and Hall of Fame in the loop. I turned my channel volumes down a bit and that helped to not overdrive the effects. I was thinking of getting some kind of control box to adjust the levels of the return and send of the loop. You would think there would be a loop send knob on the back of the amp since it's such an expensive amp, but Reinhold just don't seem to care much about effects loops. I've got a killer tone right now, but the effects loop could still be improved by a Ebtec Line level thingy or something of that nature I think. I can live with it the way it is now... but I like my effects to be crystal clear, especially delay.

Doug from Dougs Tubes suggested a Mullard Reissue for the effects loop tube. He also said to not use a Mullard in V1, but I see a few people do. I've always liked a Tun-Sol in V1 and thats what I'm running now. Tightened up the amp a little and more alive sounding.

 

[Deleted member 17525]

I always use a Buffer somewhere in a Instrument Level (-10) FX Loop.
Not sure if your pedals have one built into them or not but its worth looking into.
Also, the type of cable used can make a noticeable difference, especially the connector.
I've used Lava ELC's for years now in my FX Loops and they work really well there.
And I've heard G&H connectors make a mediocre cable sound great.

 

[Adambomb]

I always use a Buffer somewhere in a Instrument Level (-10) FX Loop.
Not sure if your pedals have one built into them or not but its worth looking into.
Also, the type of cable used can make a noticeable difference, especially the connector.
I've used Lava ELC's for years now in my FX Loops and they work really well there.
And I've heard G&H connectors make a mediocre cable sound great.

Yea I'm using good cables. with the TC pedal buffers on the effects dont sound as smooth, so I run them true-bypass, it's sounds cleaner.

 

[Deleted member 17525]

I always use a Buffer somewhere in a Instrument Level (-10) FX Loop.
Not sure if your pedals have one built into them or not but its worth looking into.
Also, the type of cable used can make a noticeable difference, especially the connector.
I've used Lava ELC's for years now in my FX Loops and they work really well there.
And I've heard G&H connectors make a mediocre cable sound great.

Yea I'm using good cables. with the TC pedal buffers on the effects dont sound as smooth, so I run them true-bypass, it's sounds cleaner.

Yeah, the ones built into the pedals are not always so great.
If you have access to a dedicated buffer, like a Axess Electronics BS2 Buffer/Splitter give that a shot. They sound great, much better than the built in Buffers. I wouldn't dump a large sum of $$$ into it though, may not be your problem.
FX Loops are such a Love/Hate ordeal...

 

[Adambomb]

I always use a Buffer somewhere in a Instrument Level (-10) FX Loop.
Not sure if your pedals have one built into them or not but its worth looking into.
Also, the type of cable used can make a noticeable difference, especially the connector.
I've used Lava ELC's for years now in my FX Loops and they work really well there.
And I've heard G&H connectors make a mediocre cable sound great.

Yea I'm using good cables. with the TC pedal buffers on the effects dont sound as smooth, so I run them true-bypass, it's sounds cleaner.

Yeah, the ones built into the pedals are not always so great.
If you have access to a dedicated buffer, like a Axess Electronics BS2 Buffer/Splitter give that a shot. They sound great, much better than the built in Buffers. I wouldn't dump a large sum of $$$ into it though, may not be your problem.
FX Loops are such a Love/Hate ordeal...

100% agree

 

[glassjaw7]

Really is a shame that every modern amp doesn't have a transparent loop. No excuse for a loop that robs your tone these days.

 

[Adambomb]

I tried out several tubes in the effects loop slot and I'm at almost unity gain now. The tube in a tube buffered effects loop makes more of a different than I thought. Have an old 9th Gen Chinese tube in the effects loop send.

 

[richedie]

Are you still having a loop issue? I also have a 20th Shiva and live the loop. It is very transparent to me and works great. All my amps run JJ preamp tubes and power tubes. I also had those TC pedals in the loop with no volume drop. Also never a problem with my MXR or Boss pedals either. It would be nice to have an effects loop send and receive volume or power control like my Mesa Boogie and PWE but my Shiva loop is trouble free. One thing I try to do is always have a good buffered pedal in front of the amp and one in the loop. For example, I often have an EQ or mid boost of some sort in the loop. Either way, I have not experienced a volume drop.

That said, I have been considering going without a loop with any of my amps for easier set up and less cables. A lot of guys I know are going loopless...with all sorts of music and just running a darker analog delay into the front of the amp.
The audience won't care.

 

[Adambomb]

Are you still having a loop issue? I also have a 20th Shiva and live the loop. It is very transparent to me and works great. All my amps run JJ preamp tubes and power tubes. I also had those TC pedals in the loop with no volume drop. Also never a problem with my MXR or Boss pedals either. It would be nice to have an effects loop send and receive volume or power control like my Mesa Boogie and PWE but my Shiva loop is trouble free. One thing I try to do is always have a good buffered pedal in front of the amp and one in the loop. For example, I often have an EQ or mid boost of some sort in the loop. Either way, I have not experienced a volume drop.

That said, I have been considering going without a loop with any of my amps for easier set up and less cables. A lot of guys I know are going loopless...with all sorts of music and just running a darker analog delay into the front of the amp.
The audience won't care.

Well, I'll say that the loop still isn't as good as my Friedman's super duper Metro loop, but it's not bad. I play the 20th Shiva with pedals in front though and don't really use the loop cause the sound is still more "balls to the wall" with plugging straight in the front. But I could get by using the loop.

 

[richedie]

It is so weird because I have loved the loop. I have had no issues. That said, I like having some good buffered pedals.
So are you just using delay and chorus, into the amp? Biggest issue for me is not having a mid boost pedal or delay in loop. I would just use a darker, analog delay with tone control and one repeat so you can hardly notice. I would have to use my amp's built in boost, second master.
The loop I did not like was the Egnater Mod 50. Ugh.

 

[encarnated]

have you tried to use just a patch cable send and return on the amp? try that to see if sound is different or weak. i had that happen to me as well and i cleaned the jacks with a q-tip. i also run my channel master reverse from the way u describe. i run mine at 1 oclock and master volume to taste. i use various boss pedals and now the eventide H9 with no problems. i actually find the reverb kills the tone a little on mine.

 

[richedie]

With a buffered loop, it should be fine.