About recorded amp harshness and highs

frthib

frthib

Active member
I wish I could go back in time somehow to explain to the younger me about why (all) my recording that were too bright and harsh :

- eq to death isn't the solution,
- a sm57 isn't harsh,
- that i don't need to buy that EQ that everyone use,
- that amp XYZ isn't bad and most likely don't sounds brittle
- my cabs are OK and adequate
- don't need to swap tubes if they are working
- tube outboard gear isn't required
- analog outboard gear isn't the key
- a high quality mic preamp isn't the solution
- plugins most likely doesn't solve any problems

All of those could have been solved is I somehow took chances and tried to record a amp at settings that are way darker than what I'm used to.

lower presence and highs ON THE AMP to a place where what I ear is a bit "dull" (AKA not harsh). the sm57 and mic placement will liven that up.

darker amp, brighter mic, neutral placement (cap edge, dual sm57 sneap) = equilibrated tone

I used to match amp (in the room) tones with recorded tones.. what a mistake.
this isn't how it's done at all.

well I learned something with that.

It work with distortion pedals too.. Clean channel too bright and harsh, use a real dark pedal setting.. etc...

ps : those are for ME to get maybe 90% of the tones i want to have.. The last 10% is in those "I don't need" in the list and are crazy expensive for what they give back for me.
 
Techdeth said:
Don’t take away all the highs and harshness . It use to be a part of good tone . Today everything is so flat and compressed with no character . Just don’t forget it can be good some
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That was a huge part of the problem, since i recorded too bright, I thought i had to lowpass up to 3khz (!!!), then kill those 5-6 khz frequencies as those on youtube does.

Then the sound was terrible, bleak and flat. So I added back highs with a high self. It -could- sounds good but would be very far from what the source was.

now, it a simple low pass at 8khz don't get me in the right place, i know something is wrong. after I know the source works, I can then eq if I want but I noticed that if i'm playing great, i don't really want to mess with it. :unsure:
 
frthib said:
darker amp, brighter mic...
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For those who may be interested, it's a principal of audio engineering:

The brighter the source, the darker the mic
The darker the source, the brighter the mic

... as a rule of thumb.
 
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IMO tones that sound good mic'd always sound good in the room.

IMO tones that sound "good" in the room, don't always sound good mic'd. Especially when someone is not used to dialing in tones that will work well in a mix.

I also think it's a good idea to have a few reference tones that you like for the style of music that you're trying to record. Remember, you're not trying to clone those tones, but you usually wanna get an idea of the very general picture of the EQ, gain, compression, etc. that has proven to work tastefully in a mix.
 
I find the opposite. To get a sound that sits in the mix right, the sound in the room needs to be brighter and more mid range heavy than I would dial for just playing. Usually less gain and low end as well. But now that I’ve been recording all these years, the room sound I like to dial in for pleasure has got real close to what I would record with anyway.
I have a variety of speakers so use those to really shape the overall response.
Unless you’re a pro studio, all the expensive mics and Pre’s are a waste of money. Having a good source to capture is most of it. Not saying the expensive gear isn’t its own appeal/fun like guitars and amps that are more expensive than we need but how much is 5% better worth to most of us just messing around.
It’s funny thinking of all the music where it’s purposely made to sound lo-fi or garage though 3K mic pre’s etc.
 
Kalluget said:
Or you could just get a ribbon mic.
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Look, they're great, but there's much to be said for ameliorating frequency-balance weaknesses via the mic-choice formula I outlined earlier.

I mean, even something super-flat such as a PZM or Earthworks measurement mic isn't going to undo unwanted frequency peaks (troughs aren't as much of a problem).

Just MHO mate.
 
That reminds me:

One of the reasons a '57 has proven itself for many decades in this application is because it softens the "super-high end". The reason I don't like the Audix i5 (At least, I think that's the name of it) is 'cause it has a "hard" sound in this "super-high end" area. Many peeps like it 'cause it sounds "accurate" on cabs, which may be true overall, but once you've identified that hard high-end, you can't unhear it.

At any rate, even 'though the '57 has that huge upper-mid bump, it still goes to work on harsh highs. Its mojo helps too of course. :LOL:
 
OK, I just looked up the i5 spec's.

From SOS:
... there's a slight bass hump at around 150Hz, augmented by a broad presence boost from 3kHz to 8kHz, giving the frequency response curve a slight smile shape.

There ya go. That particular smiley face ain't gonna tame an edgy cab sound. No sireee.
 
Great thread here. I am reminded every time I need to crouch down to adjust something on my board how totally different the sound is 'in the room' as compared to directly in front of the speaker cone. Both my 4x12s are straight front, so all 4 speakers are working in the same plane - and hitting you from the waist down. While standing, you get the impression of all these warm, full lows and this smooth, glassy top end. Get your ear where the mic is positioned and you lose lot of the 'perceived' low end that fills the room and the upper-mids and top end becomes noticeably more strident. When you set the amp for the mic, it does sound unusually 'dark' when you stand up / get your ear off the speaker cone and hear what's happening in the room. On the limited occasions that I did some recording in a nic(er) studio, I always recorded my parts in the control room listening to the monitors instead of playing in the room with the amp. A really good pair of headphones will do the same trick, as long as you don't mind having them on your head when you are trying to relax and play.
 
I don't have the benefit of using mic'd cabs in a pro-level studio space, instead I rely on IRs and means of room EQ correction in my basic home setup. After struggling with middy and low energy mixes for a while I'm now going for a balanced guitar sound through a known listening environment (i.e. it's familiar and translates well) and the more drastic eq moves happen in the daw.

On the amp I keep bass below flub point, mids below honk point, treble below harsh point and presence below piercing point and dial gain back a notch from where I think I want it and then make sure that one side of double tracked parts does not have a pre-eq boost like TS, SD etc so the natural lows of the amp are there somewhere.
 
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PDC said:
Great thread here. I am reminded every time I need to crouch down to adjust something on my board how totally different the sound
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yes, its exactly what i tried to explain.. when i hear my (4x12) cab i'm usually angled from the cab.. i compensate the lack of brightness from the spot i'm hearing by adding highs and presence.. at that point i knew i can't stick my head right in front of the speaker, it would be like a blizzard of nails in the ear, yet i place(d) a sm57, a already Bright mic, right where i wouldnt put my ears..

PDC said:
so all 4 speakers are working in the same plane - and hitting you from the waist down ... Get your ear where the mic is positioned and you lose lot of the 'perceived' low end that fills the room and the upper-mids and top end becomes noticeably more strident.
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someone said a mic is an electric ear.. it just tranfers what its hearing at that place. do i like what im hearing standing on my knees in front the cab? if not, nothing magical will.correct this..

PDC said:
When you set the amp for the mic, it does sound unusually 'dark' when you stand up / get your ear off the speaker cone and hear what's happening in the room.
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yes, exactly what i meant.. its unusual, and quite a different experience.. its not hard on the earing, its way less abrasive..

im trying to emulate a recording room by setting the amp quite low volume and monitors quite high to really hear what the mic is recording.. i dont really like/trust headphones.. when im ok with what i hear, then i mute the monitors and go headphones to record...

i also have another room with passthrough for cables, buy its too much hassle
 
PDC said:
Great thread here. I am reminded every time I need to crouch down to adjust something on my board how totally different the sound is 'in the room' as compared to directly in front of the speaker cone. Both my 4x12s are straight front, so all 4 speakers are working in the same plane - and hitting you from the waist down. While standing, you get the impression of all these warm, full lows and this smooth, glassy top end. Get your ear where the mic is positioned and you lose lot of the 'perceived' low end that fills the room and the upper-mids and top end becomes noticeably more strident. When you set the amp for the mic, it does sound unusually 'dark' when you stand up / get your ear off the speaker cone and hear what's happening in the room. On the limited occasions that I did some recording in a nic(er) studio, I always recorded my parts in the control room listening to the monitors instead of playing in the room with the amp. A really good pair of headphones will do the same trick, as long as you don't mind having them on your head when you are trying to relax and play.
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Of course the scientific explanamation is...

Highs are directive and when you stand your ears are outside the beam path.
Lows need space to "bloom" due to the long wavelengths so you don't necessarily appreciate their full extent with your head close to a cone.

Catthan said:
On the amp I keep bass below flub point, mids below honk point, treble below harsh point and presence below piercing point and dial gain back a notch from where I think I want it...
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Perfect approach IMHO bro'. :thumbsup:
 
Catthan said:
I don't have the benefit of using mic'd cabs in a pro-level studio space
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when you close.mic with dynamic.mics, i tend to think the room isnt that important in the first 90% of the tone.. i always add a room emulation after anyway (sunset room). you can have great and unique results with a pretty humble setup..

keyword : unique.

Catthan said:
and then make sure that one side of double tracked parts does not have a pre-eq boost like TS, SD etc so the natural lows of the amp are there somewhere.
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i'm keeping that one! thanks
 
The best recorded tones I’ve ever achieved sounded like utter trash in the room. Just awful. Small, narrow, choked and fuzzy, nothing but garbled megaphone mids. But through monitors and in my car, it sounded huge clear and basically perfect to my ears at least.

Honestly it was a watershed moment that ended up teaching me that “in the room” tone means less than nothing.
 
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TheGreatGreen said:
The best recorded tones I’ve ever achieved sounded like utter trash in the room. Just awful. Small, narrow, choked and fuzzy, nothing but garbled megaphone mids. But through monitors and in my car, it sounded huge clear and basically perfect to my ears at least.

Honestly it was a watershed moment that ended up teaching me that “in the room” tone means less than nothing.
Click to expand...
It all came down to the frequency response that translated through those mics and how they sit in the mix, especially with bass guitar. I’ve learned to try a few different amps in going for something, as my 1st choice that I feel will obviously work, sometimes loses to an amp I wouldn’t even have considered. But speaker choice plays into this as well.
 
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