Bruce...Can my Renegade handle a 12AT7 in the P.I. ?

[lightningblues427]

Can my Renegade handle a 12AT7 in the P.I. ?

I ask because it is said to give off 10 times the current output of a 12AX7 ?

Dont want to fry anything if long term use will cause damage....

I bought one (Tungsol 12AT7 -6201) waiting for it to arrive, and want to use it in the Phase inverter position hoping to get a more dynamic clean and less fizz in the gain channel as I read that it creates a more dynamic touch sensitive playing feel and sound because it has lower gain in and of itself but that it supposedly pushes the power tubes harder because of its higher current output ? Does that make sense ?

Read this article in regard to 12AT7 in the phase inverter: http://www.guitaramplifierblueprinting. ... verter.pdf

 

[Keith Johns]

Hello Lightning....I found the same article and asked Bruce about it....I was asking about using a 12AU7....here's what he said....
"You won't harm your amp by trying the 12AU7. The issue is that the AU draws more current. The Renegade uses 1 watt MF resistors in the critical locations. The 12AU7 will cause more voltage drop (more heat) on those resistors but should be just fine. The fact that the Renegade does not have a post phase inverter master and does have negative feedback in the poweramp, the audible change with the AU7 will probably be minimal and will not reduce the volume if that is your goal. I don't necessarily agree with Miles that the "most important" tube is the phase inverter in amps like the Renegade where 90% of the tone and gain is generated in the preamp. Hope this helps? Thanks Bruce"

I found that it worked well but Bruce was right and in the end went back to a 12AX7 in the PI and started using a set of 6V6's and a set of 5881 power tubes....both of these tubes let you push the Master Volume more as they are both lower output power tubes....as the Renegade is a 65watt amp that's nearer to a 100watt than a 50watt amp....the Renegade is still loud but you get more break up at usable gig-able volumes. I put a vid on YouBoob....the sound is not the best but if you play it loud or through headphones you will get the gist....k.j.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2_o37nDZ ... _dFtkOdaUA

Give this a read as-well....

http://chasingthetone.blogspot.co.uk/20 ... es_24.html

 

[lightningblues427]

Hey thanks Keith, I had caught your bullocks site earlier its kind of what got me going on the Phase inverter kick in the first place, I was hoping to hear it made a bigger impact but I can tell already from your description that I will more than likely just go with a 12AX7 fulltime, I dont want to heat anything up more than it should be, I guess I will turn my focus more on power tubes and see where that takes me..

listened to your vid, nice deep bluesy tone at the 18 watt setting......I printed off a whole bunch of your info on tubes and such for reference...thanks for putting it out there.

later

 

[Keith Johns]

Thanking you for the complements that made my day....couple of tips....try and stick to one manufacturers tubes for the pre amp tubes....mixing them does not quite work sometimes....you can find a mixed set that sounds awesome but most times you find that they are OK but not great. mixing up gain factors can give you good results at home at Lower volumes but then at gigs sound lost....the Renegade was designed with the stock tubes in mind and 8 out of 10 times will give you the best tone....is it really worth spending money to see if you can get a better tone than Bruce got from the amp....eer....I have to say no. the best tube I have found for the V1 position is a Tung-Sol 12AX7/ECC803 Gold Pin - awesome tube that smooths out your tone. if you want a bluesy tone the Tung-Sols are great....if you want metal/rock tone JJ's and they last ages. if your looking for early break up 6V6s and low output 5881 work really well with the 2nd volume on the Renegade giving the 6V6s more push. for everything else 6L6s and EL34. again Tung-Sol are very good....they seem to be the better sounding tubes coming out of Sovtek....Tube Amp Doctor 6L6s the WGC-STR GE one are my favs at the moment. but at the end of the day you might be best putting an EQ pedal last in line in your FX Loop to tweak your tone to your liking like Boogie amps have rather than spend money in the off chance you find your perfect tube set....I have a modded Boss GE-7 that I use all the time....at home and at gigs to take away some boom or add some mids. the other thing I have done is wire up my 2x12 cab with separate inputs for each speaker....at home I use just one speaker then at gigs plug both sides in and if I'm being honest that has made the biggest difference with me being happy with my tone most of the time. I've been where you are and messing with the PI seemed to work but not as well as I had hopped it would....putting in lower output power tubes gave me the best results....messing with tubes was fun but had me going round in circles spending money and the only thing I found out was that Bruce did a very good job on the Renegade and that I was very good at making it sound worse....hope any of that helps....k.j.

 

[lightningblues427]

You've got me laughing over here in Seattle as I found I too am very adept at making my amp sound worse...lol

I did pick up 3 Tungsol 12ax7's (standard version though) and 1 Tungsol 12AT7 (that I have just decided was a waste of money..lol) and 1 JJ ecc83 S , have 5 Groove tube 12ax7-R3's (EH 12ax7) and 1 GT 12ax7-C chinese
and all the ruby's that came with the amp of course

Did learn about the TAD 6l6 WGC-STR GE and will be picking those up when I start to shop for power tubes

I didnt learn of the Tungsol Gold pins until after I ordered but will get those next, I am loving the Tungsol 12ax7's I have in V1 and V2 they really gave me some nice tone in the clean side, I havn't found the same magic on the drive channel yet, not much for distortion to begin with, I play mainly extended bluesy jams and like a nice tone so Im still trying to figure a way to knock the distortion out of channel 2 but honestly havnt given it much effort because I run everything thru the clean channel.....any tips for cleaning up channel 2 would be much appreciated.....thats why I thought the 12AT7 might help to clean up the gain a little but I dont want to use anything that might cause problems in the circuit.

Interesting to hear about using one Tube Manufacturer across the whole preamp section, I thought maybe that was done to cut cost by manufacturers of the amp in production....something for me to think about for sure....

just a side note always happy to talk shop and exchange details.

Chris

 

[lightningblues427]

Thanking you for the complements that made my day....couple of tips....try and stick to one manufacturers tubes for the pre amp tubes....mixing them does not quite work sometimes....you can find a mixed set that sounds awesome but most times you find that they are OK but not great. mixing up gain factors can give you good results at home at Lower volumes but then at gigs sound lost....the Renegade was designed with the stock tubes in mind and 8 out of 10 times will give you the best tone....is it really worth spending money to see if you can get a better tone than Bruce got from the amp....eer....I have to say no. the best tube I have found for the V1 position is a Tung-Sol 12AX7/ECC803 Gold Pin - awesome tube that smooths out your tone. if you want a bluesy tone the Tung-Sols are great....if you want metal/rock tone JJ's and they last ages. if your looking for early break up 6V6s and low output 5881 work really well with the 2nd volume on the Renegade giving the 6V6s more push. for everything else 6L6s and EL34. again Tung-Sol are very good....they seem to be the better sounding tubes coming out of Sovtek....Tube Amp Doctor 6L6s the WGC-STR GE one are my favs at the moment. but at the end of the day you might be best putting an EQ pedal last in line in your FX Loop to tweak your tone to your liking like Boogie amps have rather than spend money in the off chance you find your perfect tube set....I have a modded Boss GE-7 that I use all the time....at home and at gigs to take away some boom or add some mids. the other thing I have done is wire up my 2x12 cab with separate inputs for each speaker....at home I use just one speaker then at gigs plug both sides in and if I'm being honest that has made the biggest difference with me being happy with my tone most of the time. I've been where you are and messing with the PI seemed to work but not as well as I had hopped it would....putting in lower output power tubes gave me the best results....messing with tubes was fun but had me going round in circles spending money and the only thing I found out was that Bruce did a very good job on the Renegade and that I was very good at making it sound worse....hope any of that helps....k.j.

Oh you Rock ! dude.....

I just happen to have a Carl Martin Parametric Preamp EQ pedal sitting on a shelf doing nothing and pluged it in after my Ethos overdrive and my tone improved dramatically ( not that it was bad to start with) ...and that was with everything set at 12 O'clock on the EQ pedal....cant even wait to start making fine tune adjustments.....I know this wasnt exactly what you had in mind in your suggestion but I have been looking for a way to make my Ethos drive tone pop and apparently I had been looking in all the wrong places......the EQ was the answer...

I know you mention putting it in the loop or at the end of my chain but I didnt want it to interfere with the amps tone or after the modulation effects, my chain runs like this:
Origin Effects Cali76 compressor - Ethos overdrive - Carl Martin Para EQ (now)- Strymon Timeline Delay - Strymon Bigsky reverb - into the Amp (clean channel).

Im not a big distortion guy so the drive channel hasn't really been calling me to tap into it just yet, maybe later if I feel the need to simplify things but Im pretty happy now....strange Im always looking for something more to add when all I really need to do is play....lol

What a nice improvement, thank you for the suggestions Keith.

If your interested check out this guitar I built: My take on a Classic http://unofficialwarmoth.com/index.php?topic=23251.0

 

[Keith Johns]

What I found was that I really liked Tung-Sols in the Renegade....my mate hates them say's their too warm. He has a really light touch when he plays and likes the attack he gets from JJ's. Now I found the JJ's had too much attack....so is it the tubes or is it the amp....no....it's me and my neanderthal heavy handed playing that makes the biggest difference to the tone coming out of a tube and mixing up a mongol mix trying to find a mystical set of tubes is just madness. Then I started on the PI....OMG. But it's output power of the tubes that I think makes the biggest difference....a 12AU7 in V1 or in V3 or V4 will take the edge of the gain and it's the same with power tubes....the less output power in a tube....the less volume from the amp....the more you will have to turn up the master volume and get the amp working more....and you'll end up with a better tone. The EQ pedal will work better in the amps loop as you won't be affecting your pre amp section....Honest....that's where it is in a Boogie MK-whatever....and then you'll be altering your overall tone....that bad tone that we are trying to get rid of or warm and smooth things up could be the room your in affecting your tone more than your amp or the tubes in it and the EQ pedal in the loop will give you more control of your overall tone....but if you like it where you have it then that's all that matters and don't let anyone tell you differently....k.j.

 

[lightningblues427]

You were right Keith I just ran everything from the EQ including the modulation effects through the effects loop and everything sounds better, alot better more stereo phonic sounding, my Ethos overdrive even sounds better..the only thing I have running straight into the amp now is the Origin effects Cali76 compressor into the Ethos into the amp and the tone is amazing gonna take some adjustments to accent the frequencies I like but running the EQ, Delay, and Reverb thru the Effects loop really cleaned up the signal, I can hear my amps preamp section alot clearer...go figure ..lol Im such a hard head sometimes.....

 

[Keith Johns]

I've not been on the forum for a while....glad I could be of help....k.j.