Bruce Egnater said FACK YA FEELINGS Randall Smith fanbois 💀

[Eazy-ESP]

James Brown (5150 designer) tells the story of Eddie bringing him the amp to clone in his Tone Talk episode.

Yeah, I get that bit. I’m talking about all the rest of the backstory that has just been made up. That he was pissed off at Mike Soldano and decided to rip it off.

 

[Eazy-ESP]

Well, it's pretty clear that the preamp from the 5150 is straight from an SLO. That's been well known for 30 yrs. When Mike Soldano described Ed's visit to him, when he purchased 2 SLOs from him, well you can come to your own conclusion when you see what followed with Peavey and the design of the 5150.
It isn't hard.

I know it isn’t hard. I’ll go next:

Then Eddie did burnouts in Soldano’s parking lot and Alex lent out the window and threw bottles at the factory, yelling “you shouldn’t have charged us for the amps nerd”.

 

[JerEvil]

I would really like to try a Larry, but everything that surrounds it and the absurd wait time; no thanks.

Had a Randall satan and really did not dig it. If that’s truly what that circuit was based around… I’m good. But from the ground zero clips the Satan sounded nothing like it, so who knows.

I think in general the amp copying game is always going to happen, and it’s not that big a deal. Especially in the vein of people copying amps of those who have passed, or just simply can’t deliver their product for whatever reason. One way or another even when someone is trying to really reinvent the wheel there’s always going to be similarities to another product.

Man fuck Larry!

 

[dead-pan]

I think the point all the fanbois miss, intentionally or not, is that without the stolen circuit the dual rec wouldnt sound like a dual rec either.

And without the Mesa Mark the SLO would not sound like a SLO?

 

[JackBootedThug]

Finally hooked up my USA made decades old pv ultra 60 combo that I converted to a head. Sounds better than my Chinese egnater vengeance. Don’t get me wrong though…. I like the vengeance. I would take a ripped off rectifier over both any day. Played an slo a few times…not my jam…

 

[SonVolt]

High gain as we know it all started with the Mesa Mark series so the point is moot.

 

[311splawndude]

Here is what I think may be the most accurate/complete amp ‘family tree.’ There are a few in here I’d maybe take with a grain of salt, though.

Source: https://fewtubefx.blogspot.com/2022/04/guitar-amplifiers-genealogy-chart.html

Everything is kissing cousin, sitting on shoulders of that before it. That’s innovation. SLO’s cold clipping stage is the biggest game changer for modern amps, though…but even that’s inspired by the JCM800 circuit still I think just taken to a much colder bias.

Problem with this chart is that there is no Line 6. Spyder series in particular

Just Kidding. Cool chart. Never seen that before. Thanks for posting. You should post more often

I've never heard of the Bogner Triple Giant. It looks like it has influenced a lot of other builders. Does anyone know any more about this one? Thanks,

 

[Neptical]

old pv ultra 60

Fantastic amp! One of my first amps w/ matching 412 loaded with Sheffield's. That amp SINGS! One rig I wish I never sold.

 

[JackBootedThug]

Fantastic amp! One of my first amps w/ matching 412 loaded with Sheffield's. That amp SINGS! One rig I wish I never sold.

Yup…very flexible. Thing freaking thumps also. Quieter than the eggie. The egnater clean channel kills it though. But who uses that right?

 

[SpiderWars]

High gain as we know it all started with the Mesa Mark series so the point is moot.

Rip off/mod of Dumble. And sounds nothing like a Dumble.

 

[SFW]

My recollection from a Guitar World (September 1991) article that came out around the time that the FUCK album was released... Eddie stated that He used the SLO slaved into his old Marshall to record most of the album. (Dream Another Dream was done with the CAE Preamp). When Peavey came to discuss the signature amp, he pointed to the SLO/Marshall setup and told them that they would need to "beat that."

While the 5150 is not a dead-on recreation, I can definitely hear the SLO DNA in there. I can't really say I hear SLO DNA in the DR. Wasn't Mesa the first company to use cascading gain stages?

 

[SonVolt]

Rip off/mod of Dumble. And sounds nothing like a Dumble.

wut

 

[SpiderWars]

wut

Sure, a Fender BF 2 stage preamp with tone stack after first stage. Some values tweaked or with added switches but still obviously a Fender BF rip. That’s the clean.

Then cascade that clean pre into 2 more stages with a Gain control. The Mark II values are a little different but then those values varied in the Dumbles. But the basic architecture and many values the same.

Randall came right after Dumble and they’re both in Cali.

 

[Racerxrated]

And still, SLO, 5150 and the Dual Rec sound nothing alike.

Meh. Depends on the model Recto; the C I had was similar in some ways, and could be set to sound pretty close...but not exact. The EQ is pretty different, where the SLO is all upper mids and Recto lower mids.
While the preamp is a dead nuts copy, changing the EQ and power section made the differences noticeable.

 

[rstites]

While the 5150 is not a dead-on recreation, I can definitely hear the SLO DNA in there. I can't really say I hear SLO DNA in the DR. Wasn't Mesa the first company to use cascading gain stages?

All (practical) amplifiers ever made use cascading gain stages. It's been part of basic audio and radio preamp design for over a hundred years now, and completely predates the concept of electric guitars for several decades. It's also known that it creates distortion when one stage overdrives the next. Doing it intentionally was the only new thing done by guitar players.....which the pedal manufacturers got there first, actually.

If you want a real laugh, check out the advertising by the importer of Marshall amplifiers talking about how clean they were back when they were known for hard rock and metal amplifiers.

 

[stephen sawall]

i want to know what he said lol. there was a snippet on youtube of guys talking about eddie being a dick i remember watching that i cant seem to find now, those stories are much more interesting to me than what parts were in his amp

I agree. More post about WWF moments and guitarist is what we need. Dave Navarro is a good example. Anyone punch Dave Mustaine lately ?

 

[RaceU4her]

I agree. More post about WWF moments and guitarist is what we need. Dave Navarro is a good example. Anyone punch Dave Mustaine lately ?

Mustaine is a black belt I believe so no one attacks him lol

 

[BlueParfait]

Mustaine is a black belt I believe so no one attacks him lol

In multiple martial arts even

 

[mooncobra]

Didn’t he also steal something from Bogner and then patent it so Bogner could no longer use his own idea?

 

[anomaly]

I’ll say this and leave it be - longer post, so scroll on by if you don’t want to read, haha.

<rant>

Every guitarist is much better off because builders over the decades have borrowed, copied, been inspired by, etc…other designs. Do they all sound the same? No, and that’s what matters.

Too many guys look at designs on paper, read a schematic, and subsequently listen with their eyes instead of their ears. Did the Marshall sound like a Fender? No. Does the Recto sound like an SLO? No. Does a 5150 sound like either of them? No. There’s a lot more that goes into how a final product sounds than what you see on paper, but that’s all some people want to focus on because people love to be offended online.

Some builders and manufacturers - like Randall Smith and Mesa - had much more business acumen, put out a variety of products, listened to what players wanted, and changed with the times. It’s why they had tremendous success while others had modest success by comparison.

Let’s look at Soldano for example since it’s everyone’s favorite talking point. Soldano dropped the SLO and within a few years of its release was charging around $3200 by the early ‘90s with a (not good) loop and line out. That’s $7200-$7400 current day money. He also released the X88 preamp, a concept that Soldano got from Bob Bradshaw. We don’t talk about that though. Bob approached Soldano with the preamp concept (not circuit), had them build them, then Soldano had a successful product that was essentially Bob’s idea. Meanwhile Soldano sold them to Bob for just a hair under retail, so Bob made no money on them despite bringing the concept to Soldano. But, that’s apparently cool. Anyway.

The Dual Rectifier comes out priced around $1200 compared to the $3200 of the SLO. It was originally targeting the Sunset strip crowd, but Mesa saw times were changing and listened to player feedback. Within around 1.5 years of release, Mesa had already went through 5 revisions because it’s what players wanted. Meanwhile, the Soldano remained unchanged.

The Rectifier was arguably the most successful and iconic amp of its time. It owned the airwaves in the ‘90s and early ‘00s. Mesa still evolved the line and the 3 channel version was born, which also went through 4 revisions in the first couple of years. Meanwhile, 15+ years later, the Soldano remained unchanged. They also had virtually nothing that wasn’t a spin off or variation of the SLO.

By 2010, Mesa evolved the Rectifier *again* based on player feedback. Countless options added, revisions made, etc. Meanwhile, nearly 24 years later, the Soldano remained unchanged.

By the time Soldano was sold, it was 32+ years since the release of the SLO. The Recto was on its 14th-15th revision and its 3rd major iteration and adapted to countless changes in the musical landscape. The SLO hadn’t changed at all, but still cost more than double what the Recto did. What else did Soldano do that was significant during those 30 years? Not much. The amp and circuit stubbornly was kept the same despite user tastes changing numerous times, and in Soup Nazi fashion, you either liked it as-is or moved on. The more years that passed, the less value and options you got for the money as other amps advanced.

While I’m glad Soldano had that 1 cool idea 35+ years ago, that doesn’t breed long-term success or mean you have business savvy. If you refuse to change, adapt to player feedback, or even try to expand your product line beyond - basically - cheaper variations of your 1 amp idea, then what should you expect? You saw the success others were having. You saw the changes in the music landscape. You had literal decades to do R&D and make other amps. Don’t bitch and complain because companies like Mesa continued to evolve and listen to players, expanded their product portfolio, and sold countless amps for it.

Complaints about Mesa having success vs Soldano because an amp has a similar preamp section but sounds completely different would be like Marshall complaining about all the British style manufacturers, or Vox complaining about Matchless in the ‘90s, or Fender complaining about Marshall, or etc. If you don’t like it, then stop bitching and whining and make an affordable product that appeals to a wider user base. If you want to stubbornly keep your product the same, then you’ll forever be a niche product for a niche crowd.

This isn’t a knock to Soldano. I have an OG SLO right beside me as I type, and they’re great amps. But c’mon. If some of these Mesa critics spent even half as much time over the last 35 years listening to what players want and doing R&D on new designs for new offerings as they did acting personally aggrieved and offended, maybe they would have moved as many amps as Mesa over the years.

</rant>

Agree, disagree - don’t care. Just my $0.02 on the “I’m offended because others created something similar to my idea but had more success than me” crowd.

Actually a Fender Bassman and a Marshall JTM45 into the same cab will sound quite similar.