Can we make a modeler feel like an amp in the room?

  • Thread starter Thread starter GJgo
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GJgo

GJgo

Well-known member
Hey guys, I had a question that I decided to answer when a trade deal popped up here. We know that digital modelers are getting good recorded tone these days- but is it possible to get one to push air like when you have a real tube amp and cab in the room? What about the feels? I ran this test & wanted to share. As it turns out yes, I can get it to pump air when I run the Helix into the FX return of a Coliseum then on to a real cab. However, with just a power amp the feels are still good (but not great) but the push is not there.

Also, the feel and character of the amp (sim), while totally muted when using 100% Helix direct out, is actually present & better than I thought it would be when using either of the tube power sections to run the signal to a real cab. Since I know very well what a Mark or Recto should sound & feel like it gives me confidence that the other amp sims in there would also tell me what I need to know about them. This is an interesting thought- a guy could use this thing to save shitloads of time & money figuring out what amps & cabs he likes, then go buy the real thing without all the time wasted flipping gear that doesn't work out.

I totally get why guys are using modelers live these days, and based on my first impressions, if you care about tone I would highly recommend still using a tube power amp and real speaker cab as opposed to just DI-ing direct FOH.

All Helix - 2:45
Helix full amp into M180 power - 3:27
Helix preamp into IIB FX Return - 4:20
All Mark IIB - 4:48

 
While I have my personal preferences and what I'd use; my preference is tube amps, then modeling amp / effects, then digital modelers direct to FRFR. I've been using modelers for years, across many price points from Mooer and Zoom up to Helix and Fractal, starting with the original Vox Tonelab tabletop.

Making modelers work for me required adjusting my expectations and playing; a digital modeler direct to FRFR is not going to sound, feel or act like a tube amp. Digital modelers are improving but there's a difference, it's up to the player to decide if the difference is a major issue, minor inconvenience etc.
 
GJgo said:
Dang, maybe I should trade you for my old Triple Recto. :p
Click to expand...

Is there a triple recto in the helix? I have literally zero experience with modelers outside the old gsp1101 I borrowed from my buddy probably almost 20 years ago now, I wish they would make a updated version of that thing I could load amp models into.
 
There is a Dual Recto. It sounds good. :) Piped into the M180 it becomes a Triple! haha
 
Very cool video. I can hear a very slight difference but unless your there in the room your really not gonna hear it.
That said,I completely agree with you.
To me the 4cm is the way to roll. Even sending a different pre to the amps fx return.
Right now I’m using a PowerStage 700 and I’m happy.
 
Sounds good! For me, the lengths to go through to get it to start pumping though, I’ll just take my tube amps any day lol. It’s funny a few years ago I was in a band, they tried to sway me on the modeling thing. They were like, if you run it through the amp, then into the cab, it sounds just like it. Only reason I’d use a modeler though, is straight convenience so I just have to bring a guitar and that to a gig. To me, if you’re going through those lengths live and bringing all the gear to run a tube amp, plus a modeler… just do the real thing.
 
Based on my experience, running an Axe FX 3 into a Fryette LXII power amp into a real cab actually sounds very good, to the point where I don’t think even the pickiest of tube snobs would complain. It’s not 100% the same as the real amp but it is very close. The feel and timbre are there. Overall I still prefer the real amps, but a good modeler into a great power amp can be a great solution if you enjoy tweaking and want that amp in the room sound. I will say I did not like any of the solid state power amps I’ve tried (Matrix, SD Powerstage).
 
Bram576 said:
Sounds good! For me, the lengths to go through to get it to start pumping though, I’ll just take my tube amps any day lol. It’s funny a few years ago I was in a band, they tried to sway me on the modeling thing. They were like, if you run it through the amp, then into the cab, it sounds just like it. Only reason I’d use a modeler though, is straight convenience so I just have to bring a guitar and that to a gig. To me, if you’re going through those lengths live and bringing all the gear to run a tube amp, plus a modeler… just do the real thing.
Click to expand...
Note that for local shows I do play my "real" amps, in my case a Mark IIC+. However, if we were to get any out of town gigs I'm hesitant to take those amps on the road so I thought "if I can get most of the way there with a modeler & a tube power amp then I'll solve that problem".

The one thing I really needed besides "good enough" feel was for it to move some air, which from what I've seen isn't possible when the modeler goes direct FOH, hence this test. As to that goal, so far I'm pleased. Honestly it's better than I expected it to be.
 
20230205_164743.jpg

I made copies of my Mesa Boogie Mark V, Carvin V3, X-100 B, Legacy 1,2,3, , Marshall JCM 800, Peavey JSX, Fender Princeton and others .
This Digitech artifact has dual distortions , tube two 12ax7 tubes / Analog paths, that I can use one or both .

20220614_170350.jpg


I moved my two VHT Valvulators ( one 12ax7 tube each) from my pedalboard, to the output section of the left/ right out of my 2112, before going into two Crate Power Blocks in stereo.
This set up made me retire my Eleven Rack .
This set up has tube dynamics, because it is a tube set up .
They're is so many ways to sound good, in endless / infinite combinations of new or old gear .
 
After gigging live with my Helix direct into the PA now for over 4 years, I tried gigging with my Mesa Mk V 90 watt recently and I missed my helix. I had so little control over the nuances compared to the Helix. The Amp was (and maybe I'm over biased now after so long) just too much. I just could not get the sag and feel that I'm now used to, not to mention the HUGE variety of tones required for a cover band playing songs the audience wants to dance to. "Amp in the Room"? maybe not, but WAAAYYY more flexibility and control and the feel that I've become accustomed to. And through my monitor, it sounds fine to me.

Granted, I don't play the same type of "chug-a-chug" stuff that you're demonstrating here (and I can't for the life of me actually tell much difference between the clips above, they all just sound way over-distorted to me - I think I'm just too old LOL), but for my style of music - a vast variety of cleans, grinds, classic rock crunch, and a few heavily overdriven tunes - I'm just now addicted to how I have my presets laid out on my Helix.

Does my $3000+ amp sound fantastic? Yep. Is it "better" enough to justify me lugging a 45lb amp head and a 35lb cab in and out of a venue - and my house - every gig, only to have a "feel" that ONLY I can appreciate? (the other band members and definitely the audience don't care one way or another). Not for me. I'll stick with my 15lb Helix and a couple of cables for load-in / load-out.

And for recording, By the time I add compression, reverb, delay, EQ, etc, I can make it sound any way I need to for the song I'm recording. And I can do it all without the need for iso-booths and long cables to have a cranked amp in another room, etc.
 
Screw the software IRs and just use a regular guitar speaker (analog IR) instead.
That's step #1 to bringing a modeler closer to AITR.
 
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