Can we talk amp modding?

[marvcus]

The Rebel modding thread got me to thinking.

Believe me, I am all for tone-chasing and modding and getting the sound in your head. Anyone should be able to do anything they want to their gear. I by no means am saying that "stock" is better or worse than any mod.

However, I have a hard time wrapping my head around why someone would want to pay $XXX
for Mod "X" instead of a mod that is custom-tailored to the individual? Is it just price driven?

For example: If I had a Marshall JCM 800 and I sent it for a mod to have Mercury Magnetic trannies put in, a few circuit tweaks, etc., how do I know that my money is getting the best mods for what I'm paying? What if Heyboer trannies sound better? Or Onetics Hi-Fi? Or Brand X? What about other components/circuit changes that I would really need to be there in person to make a judgment call on?

It seems like everything is left up to the modding individuals, many of which are EXTREMELY capable, but, IMO, it would seem like you are getting "their" mod instead of "your" mod. Or does that not really matter? I guess it's not a bad thing if that's what you want, but IMO, if I was going to have something modded, I'd want to give the final "OK."

Agree? Disagree?

 

[Audioholic]

If there is a general concensus about a particuliar amp, such as, muddy, clarity, etc etc, then these are all things that generally can be improved upon without the need for any custom idear inputs you know. Specially since most of the modders have tons of experience with amps, and how to improve them, so sometimes it may be best to just leave it up to them to know how to improve a particuliar amp. but most of them also are open to custom ideas, so you dno't have to be stuck with just something if you don't want to. my 2 cents

 

[dfrattaroli]

I agree. It's not "your" mod. It's "their" mod and you have to decide if you want to use it. I'd rather live with my M4 for a few more weeks/months and then, if I want to change something, I'll give Jeff a call and say: "Hey! Can you knuckle-heads make my MHG do this and not do this?"

If the answer is "Yes" and it doesn't cost a kidney, I'll do it.

Peace out ya butt punchers.



Dave

 

[Gino]

It seems like everything is left up to the modding individuals, many of which are EXTREMELY capable, but, IMO, it would seem like you are getting "their" mod instead of "your" mod. Or does that not really matter? I guess it's not a bad thing if that's what you want, but IMO, if I was going to have something modded, I'd want to give the final "OK."

That's exactly it though. The price reflects THE mod. Whether it's "your mod" or "their mod" is a matter of how much you're willing to pay. Just because you're paying for a mod doesn't necessarily mean that you should automatically get to customize it without throwing in a little extra. You're paying for parts as well as their time and, more importantly, their expertise. If you want mod X, then pay for mod X and be done with it. If you want to say, "I like the direction mod X goes but I'd like [this or that] done as well," then expect a price difference as your mod is now custom. Obviously that's always up to whoever is doing the modding whether or not to upcharge you for something custom, especially if it's just a matter of using one component over another with no part price difference, but it benefits them to have a standard price for a standard mod and then add cost for "a la carte" options.

Just my $0.02...

 

[marvcus]

It seems like everything is left up to the modding individuals, many of which are EXTREMELY capable, but, IMO, it would seem like you are getting "their" mod instead of "your" mod. Or does that not really matter? I guess it's not a bad thing if that's what you want, but IMO, if I was going to have something modded, I'd want to give the final "OK."

That's exactly it though. The price reflects THE mod. Whether it's "your mod" or "their mod" is a matter of how much you're willing to pay. Just because you're paying for a mod doesn't necessarily mean that you should automatically get to customize it without throwing in a little extra. You're paying for parts as well as their time and, more importantly, their expertise. If you want mod X, then pay for mod X and be done with it. If you want to say, "I like the direction mod X goes but I'd like [this or that] done as well," then expect a price difference as your mod is now custom. Obviously that's always up to whoever is doing the modding whether or not to upcharge you for something custom, especially if it's just a matter of using one component over another with no part price difference, but it benefits them to have a standard price for a standard mod and then add cost for "a la carte" options.

Just my $0.02...

I think you have a pretty good assessment here.

I just realized another plus in going the Egnater MOD route is that you can send it to Jeff, Dave Friedman, etc. and get a "custom" mod pretty inexpensively.

Too bad Bruce isn't doing the amp seminars right now, I think he'd have a big turnout. I totally see the relevance and payoff in going to this seminar, especially for folks wanting to really nail their individual quest for "that tone."

 

[muudrock]

I've personally never been very happy with any mods I've had done. I've had numerous Marshalls modded and in the end it wasn't what I was looking for. The problem is everybody hears things differently and tone is just so damn hard to explain in words. Add that to the fact that nobody's rigs, guitars, pickups, speakers, etc are the same. All of that contributes to the finished sound. You're getting one persons interpretation of something, even in a custom mod. Unless you have the ability to sit down and test while it's being done (not likely), you are still getting what the modder hears.

That being said, I've had better luck searching and finding a pedal or changing out tubes or speakers to get the tones I'm chasing. With the modular gear, it's that much easier. For the most part, all the Egnater or Randall modules I own have a great starting point anyway and I usually can find what I'm chasing by twisiting knobs, flicking switches or, change the module. Add the fact that there are SO many pedal options to add gain, or change the flavor of the preamp, I just can't see having an amp modded unless you know for sure what the outcome will be and that you will like it.

I've had a few of my modules modded and they all serve their purpose for me, but honestly, in the end, the original was just as good or better.

 

[aeroic]

I've had two amps modded by Trace @ Voodoo amps that I really liked. I had the "kitchen sink" mod done to the 5150 I had, and I honestly felt that he did what he advertised. I also had him mod my Marshall JMP-1, and again he did as advertised.

Trace is one of the few people I trust to mod amps. Jeff has done a great job on the SL2 for me too.

Eric

 

[jmgman69]

Nothing wrong with a little "fine tuning"

 

[Len Rabinowitz]

I have always tried to think "Get it right from the start." If you are going to buy a piece of equipment, there is so much available today there is no reason not to take the time and get something that sounds exactly like you want and was made that way.

I have had some unfortunate experiences with modifications.

Some mods do make some sense. In the case of Eggie, they will usually do the mod for you, so they endorse it and I assume you keep your warranty. I've done some minor things to my guitars- strap locks and noiseless pickups on the Strat- but they are relatively minor and undoable.

Maybe that should be the standard: Can you undo it, in case you change your mind later or want to sell it?

Something like playing around with the tubes on an Eggie- acceptable. Undoable, and with the easy biasing they have clearly said "Go ahead."

Other things are maybe not such a good idea. I am really getting drawn to this idea of less being more. Get a good guitar and a good amp. Play well. Plug the axe into the amp and you'll be amazed at what it sounds like!

It's like "Fix it in the mix." I try and avoid it. I would rather get it right right out of the amp.

Just my two cents!

 

[dfrattaroli]

I have always tried to think "Get it right from the start." If you are going to buy a piece of equipment, there is so much available today there is no reason not to take the time and get something that sounds exactly like you want and was made that way.

I have had some unfortunate experiences with modifications.

Some mods do make some sense. In the case of Eggie, they will usually do the mod for you, so they endorse it and I assume you keep your warranty. I've done some minor things to my guitars- strap locks and noiseless pickups on the Strat- but they are relatively minor and undoable.

Maybe that should be the standard: Can you undo it, in case you change your mind later or want to sell it?

Something like playing around with the tubes on an Eggie- acceptable. Undoable, and with the easy biasing they have clearly said "Go ahead."

Other things are maybe not such a good idea. I am really getting drawn to this idea of less being more. Get a good guitar and a good amp. Play well. Plug the axe into the amp and you'll be amazed at what it sounds like!

It's like "Fix it in the mix." I try and avoid it. I would rather get it right right out of the amp.

Just my two cents!

I don't know. Mods are just another method of getting your tone. It's another way to turn knobs. Having a mod isn't going away from "keeping it simple". And besides, say what you may, guitarists don't keep it simple. It's like asking water to not be wet. John Petrucci actually thinks his rig is "relatively simple when you get down to it". Changing a capacitor or resistor value isn't exactly muddying the waters. In fact, mods is not at all like fixing it in the mix. It's the opposite. It's fixing it before you even record it.

 

[aeroic]

I have always tried to think "Get it right from the start." If you are going to buy a piece of equipment, there is so much available today there is no reason not to take the time and get something that sounds exactly like you want and was made that way.

I have had some unfortunate experiences with modifications.

Some mods do make some sense. In the case of Eggie, they will usually do the mod for you, so they endorse it and I assume you keep your warranty. I've done some minor things to my guitars- strap locks and noiseless pickups on the Strat- but they are relatively minor and undoable.

Maybe that should be the standard: Can you undo it, in case you change your mind later or want to sell it?

Something like playing around with the tubes on an Eggie- acceptable. Undoable, and with the easy biasing they have clearly said "Go ahead."

Other things are maybe not such a good idea. I am really getting drawn to this idea of less being more. Get a good guitar and a good amp. Play well. Plug the axe into the amp and you'll be amazed at what it sounds like!

It's like "Fix it in the mix." I try and avoid it. I would rather get it right right out of the amp.

Just my two cents!

I don't know. Mods are just another method of getting your tone. It's another way to turn knobs. Having a mod isn't going away from "keeping it simple". And besides, say what you may, guitarists don't keep it simple. It's like asking water to not be wet. John Petrucci actually thinks his rig is "relatively simple when you get down to it". Changing a capacitor or resistor value isn't exactly muddying the waters. In fact, mods is not at all like fixing it in the mix. It's the opposite. It's fixing it before you even record it.

I agree 100% with you here. I've modded nearly every amp I've ever owned. NO AMP I've ever owned I've used stock. I have an idea in my head of what I'm looking for, and there have always been something that doesn't "agree" with me. Egnater has been by far the best at pleasing me out of the box. The SL2 / EG3/4 are the only modules that are different from stock. And if I wouldn't have had my SL2 modded to the GNR module, I would have sold it. Now, it's one of my favorite modules.

I think fixing things in the mix is by far the wrong way of doing things. A great recording engineer told me...

If the recorded tone sucks:
1. Change the cable
If that doesn't fix it,
2. Change the strings
If that doesn't fix it,
3. Change the mic / mic placement
If that doesn't fix it,
4. Change the guitar
If that doesn't fix it,
5. Change the amp
If that doesn't fix it
6. Change the player

Also...he always said..if it doesn't sound slamming going to tape...there's no polishing a terd. Get it sounding killer to tape, and then just tweak it to the mix. I don't record whatever, and then EQ the shit out of it to get "my tone". I want my tone blaring out of the speakers into the mic, so I have to do very little w/ the tone during mixdown.

Eric

 

[Len Rabinowitz]

I agree with your engineer absolutely.

I guess my response to the other things is:

1. Undoability- If your mods are professionally done and undoable, no problem.

2. Amount- Anybody might need to change one or two things, but if you buy something new and feel you need to change ten things, it seems to me you probably just bought the wrong stuff.

Maybe people want to just go full bore and build their own stuff. I assume some people do that?

 

[blumuz123]

Lets just say it.

GC egnater stuff is the best sounding mass produced gear there is,and at the right price point.
I would not hesitate playing pro gigs right out of the box.

also owning several egnater amps, speakers etc. mod 50, seminar, 4100
the GC stuff sometimes is a "littlle" did i say a little? more shrill, peaky, not as warm as the egg botique amps.

The kids at church, after playing on the different eggies a while and their ears overtime getting used to tone, they start saying
I like these better ie mod 50, Seminar. But at the same time, two of our adult pro players get great tone out of the 4100 because they know how to tweak. Its just harder to get the best tone out of the 4100, you have to work at it a bit.
And of course this is all at lower volumes than a rock club/show and most amps sound best when cranked to higher volumes.

tone-man.com Don Butler claims switching out some components and putting better ones in give better tone to mass produced amps.
In some cases much better tone. And that goes even for solid state amps.

yu have to know your components and the available replacement options and how they affect the amp to get the most out of that amp
and or taylor to taste.

I know Bruce keeps high standards but I dont know where or what GC agreed upon to keep costs down.
some components cost .07 cents each and their replacements can cost up to $7.00 each and sound significantly better.

 

[Len Rabinowitz]

Never worked with a Mod 50 or seminar amp, but I will second that on the Tourmaster. Great sounds, but steep learning curve. OK by me- I enjoy the re-eqing and playing with its capabilities.

Someone mentioned- is fiddling with the eq and switches so different from modding? I think it is, but maybe not. It is after all undoable and the amp is designed to let you do that.

 

[blumuz123]

On most records we hear,have heard and love, the pedals, amps, guitars have all been modified.
Mostly, what those players endorse and what they use are not exactly the same as far as their core sound is concerned.

Isn,t that what Bruce did for years, modify pro name player's amps etc. His mods were a big part of the reason they sounded so good.
He would not have the rep he has today if it were not so.

mmmmmmm........... I wonder how he feels about modding amps



BTW I keep modding my Vox AC30CCX and it get sweeter and sweeter, I mean reeeeeally nice. All my Eggs I haven't felt the desire or need
other than changing tubes and of course using the tried and true Vox and SL modules.
Well, I guess Bruce put all his modding experience into those already

 

[jmgman69]

On most records we hear,have heard and love, the pedals, amps, guitars have all been modified.
Mostly, what those players endorse and what they use are not exactly the same as far as their core sound is concerned.

Isn,t that what Bruce did for years, modify pro name player's amps etc. His mods were a big part of the reason they sounded so good.
He would not have the rep he has today if it were not so.

mmmmmmm........... I wonder how he feels about modding amps

Yep,and they are still doing it

 

[marvcus]

Isn,t that what Bruce did for years, modify pro name player's amps etc. His mods were a big part of the reason they sounded so good.
He would not have the rep he has today if it were not so.

mmmmmmm........... I wonder how he feels about modding amps

Yep, that's correct. I think modding stuff to taste is great and SHOULD be done, if that's what the user wants; just still can't understand why someone would buy an amp and have it modded out to the point where the only thing that's original are the chassis and the knobs. I mean, unless you want to conceal what you are really playing, I don't see the point of doing this and not just buying closer to the original amp of what the amp was modded into.

 

[Len Rabinowitz]

I think there is a tipping point somewhere, but I will admit to not being sure where it is. It's kind of a continuum I guess, but at some point it does seem ridiculous. So, throw some strap locks on a guitar? Ok, they should probably all have that anyway. Take a Les Paul with a stop tailpiece and throw a locking whammy on it? Bad idea in my opinion, particularly when you can buy one made that way.

 

[aeroic]

I think there is a tipping point somewhere, but I will admit to not being sure where it is. It's kind of a continuum I guess, but at some point it does seem ridiculous. So, throw some strap locks on a guitar? Ok, they should probably all have that anyway. Take a Les Paul with a stop tailpiece and throw a locking whammy on it? Bad idea in my opinion, particularly when you can buy one made that way.

I think the tipping point is vastly different for different people. I'm more willing to buy an amp to have it modded directly before I knew there was Egnater. After finding that, there's less and less I need done. The GNR module was definitely one of the last few things I wanted out of my modules. Definitely found the secret sauce when it comes to tubes w/ 6550s, GTE34L's, and TS5881s for power, and TS12ax7s, JP5751s, and Chinese 12ax7as for preamps. Also the G12T75 / CL80 combo is just awesome still. But...for me...my tone chasing days really have ended w/ Egnater. I just love the tone everytime I fire up my rig. And the versatility is just plain second to none, tourmaster stuff included. Like the TM for instance...I owned one...and there are definitely tonal changes I would make to it if it was my only rig. But thankfully, I have modular gear, so it's as easy as changing a module.

 

[blumuz123]

I agree with Eric!

Here is an mass production example (that isn't necessarily needed with GC Egnaters BTW)

Bought an Ampeg 8x10 bass Cab who's reputation precedes what you actually get

The speaker wires inside are thin and have clips that connect them by pushing the wire
in to make the connection. Then clips that slide onto the speaker.

Per Wades (Motorcity PU's) recommendations we changed the speaker wire to Monster cable
and soldered directly to the speaker.

I cant tell you the big difference and feel. Now you feel like your fingers are directly connected to the cab.
much warmer, slides and sustain are much smoother, you feel like a pro etc

Then bought a Ampeg 6x10 did the same, ended with the same results.

They just sound right now and an inspiration to play.