Cheating or Legitimate Technique?

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ubermetaldood

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I find that I can play a lot more Yngwie stuff up to tempo if I start with an upstroke to avoid inside picking. Normally, I'll cheat a little by using a pull off right before changing strings in order to keep the picking on the outside. I know this isn't strict alternate picking but I have been practicing religiously for a long time and don't think any more amount of practice will ever get me the speed I want. At this point, it's time for me to start playing the music so I'm not really concerned too much about having perfect alternate picking technique.

I see a lot of players on youtube playing some sick solos and they replace a lot of picking with legato, so I'm thinking at this juncture that whatever works is the best approach for me. Maybe it's time to just concentrate on the music and accept that I'll never have impeccable technique and speed like Vinnie Moore. What is your opinion on this subject?
 
Not cheating.
Music is artistic expression, is it not? :D
 
Well I've taken lessons from great shredders in the past, including Rusty Cooley, and was told to ALWAYS start with a downstroke. I have practiced with a metronome for so long and can't seem to get past 16th notes at 120-126 bpm of strict alternate picking on any run. I'm talking about the ability to play flawlessly. Between about 120 and 154 bpm is really hard to play, then gets a bit easier from around 154 to 180 because I can let the pick rake over some of the strings a little bit but then it's not really flawless.

I know there are a lot of guys who don't mind some slop in their playing, but any slop is a big distraction to me. Even if I try to play through with a little slop, it's enough of a distraction to cause other mistakes.

I NEED to be technically proficient enough to get the musical ideas out of my head, but I don't want to spend another 5 years practicing just to build up to 140 or 150 bpm. I think it's safe to say that I just don't have the legitimate shred gene, so I'm going to do what Steve Vai says and concentrate on my strengths. My legato is pretty good so I'm hoping that another 6 mo. or year learning how to cheat and use economy picking will get me over the speed hurdle enough to materialize my musical ideas. All of this practice has become an obstacle of mental blocks and stress over not achieving. Maybe it's time to just let the music flow and finally accept that no amount of practice will make me as good as Joe Stump.
 
Im going the other way I am 99% slop with the very rare clean line thrown in for flavor.
 
King Guitar":obqsc4n5 said:
Im going the other way I am 99% slop with the very rare clean line thrown in for flavor.
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I'm sure you're being modest Brad. You've heard my slop so you must know what I'm talking about :)
 
ubermetaldood":3sfla7s1 said:
.......... so I'm going to do what Steve Vai says and concentrate on my strengths. My legato is pretty good so I'm hoping that another 6 mo. or year learning how to cheat and use economy picking will get me over the speed hurdle enough to materialize my musical ideas. All of this practice has become an obstacle of mental blocks and stress over not achieving. Maybe it's time to just let the music flow and finally accept that no amount of practice will make me as good as Joe Stump.
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Yeah for sure man.
I've been playing guitar for 29 years and I discovered long ago I couldn't play like Lynch ;)
I just perceive the guitar as one of many "vehicles" for getting from (creative) point A to point B. Like problem solving.
Point A is what you hear in your head, point B is what you play. Just a transference.
I actually gave up formal practicing long ago. I just don't care. As you mentioned above, it can restrain fluidity and creativeness.
Some people are all about the structure of composition and creating flawless renditions etc, and that's totally cool. Just not me.

I honestly think the two greatest electric guitar players (to my ears) I've ever heard are Jimi and EVH. And what I like most about them is not their technique, but what they do sonically.
Their songwriting and chops aint half-bad either ;)
 
Everyone has made some great points here, just thought I'd chime in cause this is a topic near and dear to my heart. I always focused on my fretting hand and developed a great legato technique. Then one day I decided I wanted to really articulate very note with my picking hand...couldn't do it without slowing down a significant amount. Building technique is incredibly tough and takes a lot of time. It's miserable at times but I've learned to enjoy the clarity of picking every note even if its at a painful 90bpm. If its perfect, it sounds good and I feel good.

To the OP, don't give up the good fight, it's worth it. It might not feel good, but just slow it down and keep hammering away. Im not at 140 - 150 Bpm....I'm just at 110 - 115 max but the improvement from having to slow everything down and starting at 90 makes me feel really good.

And yes, sometimes just cranking the amp and banging on some power chords rejuvenates me and let's my creativity through
 
Leveraged Sellout":3e5twxl5 said:
Everyone has made some great points here, just thought I'd chime in cause this is a topic near and dear to my heart. I always focused on my fretting hand and developed a great legato technique. Then one day I decided I wanted to really articulate very note with my picking hand...couldn't do it without slowing down a significant amount. Building technique is incredibly tough and takes a lot of time. It's miserable at times but I've learned to enjoy the clarity of picking every note even if its at a painful 90bpm. If its perfect, it sounds good and I feel good.

To the OP, don't give up the good fight, it's worth it. It might not feel good, but just slow it down and keep hammering away. Im not at 140 - 150 Bpm....I'm just at 110 - 115 max but the improvement from having to slow everything down and starting at 90 makes me feel really good.

And yes, sometimes just cranking the amp and banging on some power chords rejuvenates me and let's my creativity through
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I bought a small mirror and did some real hard analysis of my pick hand technique in the last couple of weeks. My most comfortable and articulate sounding right hand position is almost like Yngwie. It's not a finger/thumb rotation. Instead, I hold the pick loosely between the pads of my index finger and thumb and use my wrist to get the movement, almost as if scooping something or holding a needle perhaps. The problem I have with this is that my grip is too weak this way and leads to digging in some strokes more than others when crossing strings. It's the best sounding pick attack, but inconsistent.

I moved from that style to the most widely used right hand style which is gripping the pick with the pad of thumb and side of the index finger, and using a wrist/forearm motion. I use my pinky as a gauge so I can skim over the strings without digging in too much. This is the most consistent, but limited to about 112 - 120 bpm with 16th notes. Any faster and my pinky or ring finger either get in the way or turn down my volume knob.

What I have noticed though is that if I cut out ALL movement except my wrist, then I seem to be able to consistently pick and not have to use my pinky or ring finger to gauge height. However, it's almost like learning how to pick all over again and there's a problem. There is just no comfortable way of keeping my pick flat enough to get a real articulate attack. The angle I hold the pick is not an extreme angle, and by all accounts, probably nearly ideal. However, in my clunky hands, it yields a dull attack which forces me to dig in more or hold the pick more on the tip of the side of my index finger, which in turn makes my picking inconsistent.

Therefore, at this juncture, I'm not sure how I'll ever develop a comfortable and consistent right hand style. It's so frustrating that I just want to give up and use legato wherever I can. Moreover, I don't even want to try playing Yngwie, Vinnie Moore, etc.. stuff I've been trying to play for years using alternate picking. I'd rather just legato and economy pick my way through everything.

My first order of business starting today is to finally be able to play Pieces of a Picture by Vinnie Moore. I'm going to cheat my way through the whole song until I can play it articulately and up to tempo.
 
I have never sat in a mirror and monitored my picking hand, but i'll tell you how i developed a comfortable picking technique (caveat being that I am just at 115 bpm max right now). I never developed a good alternate picking technique so literally had to start from day 1 of guitar playing.

Two things that helped me the most: reading somewhere (Steve Vai interview perhaps) that alternate picking is "all in the wrist". The second thing that really helped is the John Petrucci Rock Discipline DVD (more recently Joe Stump's Shred 101 DVD as well). To accurately pick, I just played chromatic exercises for at least an hour a day with a drum machine. Aim was to raise bpm every week and it has worked very well, I'm happy with the progress even though I've just gone from 90bpm to 115bpm.

Its tough work but the reward is well worth it. At what bpm can you play pieces of a picture and alternate pick the whole thing cleanly? My two cents would be to play at that speed for a week and then raise by 10bpm next week. That formula has worked for me so far, and I hope it'll work for you as well.
 
Leveraged Sellout":1akjdpig said:
I have never sat in a mirror and monitored my picking hand, but i'll tell you how i developed a comfortable picking technique (caveat being that I am just at 115 bpm max right now). I never developed a good alternate picking technique so literally had to start from day 1 of guitar playing.

Two things that helped me the most: reading somewhere (Steve Vai interview perhaps) that alternate picking is "all in the wrist". The second thing that really helped is the John Petrucci Rock Discipline DVD (more recently Joe Stump's Shred 101 DVD as well). To accurately pick, I just played chromatic exercises for at least an hour a day with a drum machine. Aim was to raise bpm every week and it has worked very well, I'm happy with the progress even though I've just gone from 90bpm to 115bpm.

Its tough work but the reward is well worth it. At what bpm can you play pieces of a picture and alternate pick the whole thing cleanly? My two cents would be to play at that speed for a week and then raise by 10bpm next week. That formula has worked for me so far, and I hope it'll work for you as well.
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I can pretty much play anything at 1/2 speed very cleanly, then I'll practice thoroughly with a metronome until I reach my speed limit of about, usually, like 20 bpm higher. Like I said, I average around 116-120 bpm of 16th notes cleanly. It's all about inside picking. For instance, check out the following lick:

v ^ v ^ v ^ v ^ v
-21-19-17-19-17-16-17-16-14-16-14-13-----14-13--------13-------------------
-----------------------------------------15--------15-14----15-14-12-...-----
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Now if I make one tiny little adjustment (pull-off on high E from 14th to 13th fret), I can alternate pick on the outside up to tempo pretty easily. I could even economy pick three consecutive downstrokes OR I could just start with an upstroke on 21.

-21-19-17-19-17-16-17-16-14-16-14_13----14-13------13-------------------
-----------------------------------------15------15-14---15-14-12-...-----
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

So technically, I could alternate pick at tempo cleanly if I use outside picking. The question is whether it's so bad to avoid inside picking on really fast runs. I'm starting to believe it's not.
 
Eh well for some reason the tabs didn't come out right so you have to quote and look at edit mode to see the tab correctly. It's a typical Yngwie type run.
 
i think i understand what you're saying with the two tabs...quite frankly, you should do what sounds good. i don't mean that answer as a cop out but i spent several months trying to pick like marty friedman, only to realize i didnt need to do that to emulate his playing.

if you can play and sound how you hear the music in your head, keep picking how your are...as long as its not physically bad for your hand etc..

As long as it sounds good and is clean thats all that matters
 
one more thing (which might get to one of the issues at hand), if your picking style prevents you from playing something, you either need to reinvent your picking style or you need to play slow until you can play the appropriate speed...i have not had the issue of my picking style preventing me from playing something, but that might happen once i get to the higher speeds, but I imagine if i spend enough time just playing slow i'll be able to speed up eventually
 
Leveraged Sellout":28eh6ro1 said:
one more thing (which might get to one of the issues at hand), if your picking style prevents you from playing something, you either need to reinvent your picking style or you need to play slow until you can play the appropriate speed...i have not had the issue of my picking style preventing me from playing something, but that might happen once i get to the higher speeds, but I imagine if i spend enough time just playing slow i'll be able to speed up eventually
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I play anything slow to about 126 bpm, then there's that gap between about 126 bpm and 150 that's the problem area. Above 150 is easier because you can brush the pick a bit when crossing strings and still keep the playing clean. What's frustrating is practicing between that 126 bpm and 150 bpm for years and still having the same articulation problems. I just have big hands which are built for gripping not shredding like Malmsteen.
 
If it sounds good, keep playing it! Efficient playing for you may not be efficient, or functional for another player.
 
Malmsteen is ALL about economy of movement...developed over countless hours of practice. Inside and outside picking are staples of alternate picking and is essential for complete accuracy in this method which Yngwie is not known for...2 different things but is a plus if you are looking for the whole package. There are no real rules like always starting with a downstroke or whatever ex. Andy James has an amazing alternate picking technique and doesn't follow this advice. Whatever works for you. Frank Gambale a master of economy picking etc. Tom Quale a master of Hybrid picking etc. Lots to be learned here!!! :rock:
I personally think hybrid picking is the thing of the future and is only started to show its true potential...Im working on that technique lately and its amazing but takes getting used to...Marshall Harrison, Tom Quale, Shawn Lane, Brett Garsed are masters at this.
 
War Admiral":28phpjs0 said:
Malmsteen is ALL about economy of movement...developed over countless hours of practice. Inside and outside picking are staples of alternate picking and is essential for complete accuracy in this method which Yngwie is not known for...2 different things but is a plus if you are looking for the whole package. There are no real rules like always starting with a downstroke or whatever ex. Andy James has an amazing alternate picking technique and doesn't follow this advice. Whatever works for you. Frank Gambale a master of economy picking etc. Tom Quale a master of Hybrid picking etc. Lots to be learned here!!! :rock:
I personally think hybrid picking is the thing of the future and is only started to show its true potential...Im working on that technique lately and its amazing but takes getting used to...Marshall Harrison, Tom Quale, Shawn Lane, Brett Garsed are masters at this.
Click to expand...

Totally agree with the mention of Tom Quayle. His legato and hybrid picking is AWESOME. I wouldn't call it cheating because legato has its own difficulties. This is especially true when doing 3 to 4 notes on a single string and trying to make each movement have the same note length.

It all comes down to what you want to hear. If you like muted sounds, legato can be a little tougher to get good articulation. Learning sweep techniques are good too where you have many up or down strokes in a row.
 
I learned a lot from an in store showcase w/ Vinnie Moore..He showed me a ton of great picking stuff.Him,as well as Al dimeola have insane picking styles down..So does the other guys mentioned here too..
 
Inside picking is a weird feeling less room to move in I practiced Jpm's inside exer and helped a lot.
 
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