Classic tone transformer upgrade

[Kapo_Polenton]

These get a lot of praise across the forums and the price is right... for my ear however, I'm not too impressed. The background on the amp is that it is an old Laney PTP that i posted about a few times on Rig Talk while troubleshooting issues with the previous transformer. It has a PTP with sozo and mallory caps and F & T filter caps. NFR is 47k like you would see in a plexi, wired to 8 ohm tap. I've already swapped preamp tubes and played with my bias (colt to hot) and the underlying tone with the classictone output tranny is to my ear, loose on the bottom end, and fizzier. Def. not holding up to the clarity of the Drake I have in my 82 2204 or the iron in my Randall Lynchbox. I've been up and down the circuit wondering if i missed something but the amp is quiet and everything works. Anyone else have similar experiences? I'm assuming the output transformer is more important than the power where tone is concerned?

discuss..

 

[russoloco]

I like the MCI iron more that mercury magnetics, heyboer, hammond, or even the drake. The 2204 is a simple enough circuit that even a coupling cap change CAN make a difference. I also prefer the jj can caps to the f&t. In the end it's up to you. If you like the laney put it back in. Laney iron is really better than people give it credit for. If the bass is "too loose" drop the first coupling cap to 4n7. That seems to work better than replacing iron imho.

 

[LP Freak]

I've used Classic Tone in a Marshall and think they're great. BTW, how can you compare the tranny in your Laney to one in a different amp?

 

[harddriver]

I've used Classic tone transformers (50 and 100 wattmarshall) in the last two amps that I have built no loose bass in either amp as in LP freak's experience as well. Bass response should be more of a factor influenced by your circuit and component (values and brands of caps) on the circuit board more than the OPT as long as the OPT is not faulty in any way. NFB values and which impedance tap it is on dictate relative loose or tight response as well.

27K on the 16 ohm tap should be verytight and clean(plexi like)

100K on the 4 ohm tap will be slightly looser but a little rattier

 

[baron55]

These get a lot of praise across the forums and the price is right... for my ear however, I'm not too impressed. The background on the amp is that it is an old Laney PTP that i posted about a few times on Rig Talk while troubleshooting issues with the previous transformer. It has a PTP with sozo and mallory caps and F & T filter caps. NFR is 47k like you would see in a plexi, wired to 8 ohm tap. I've already swapped preamp tubes and played with my bias (colt to hot) and the underlying tone with the classictone output tranny is to my ear, loose on the bottom end, and fizzier. Def. not holding up to the clarity of the Drake I have in my 82 2204 or the iron in my Randall Lynchbox. I've been up and down the circuit wondering if i missed something but the amp is quiet and everything works. Anyone else have similar experiences? I'm assuming the output transformer is more important than the power where tone is concerned?

discuss..

Output Transformers are not all the same, based on wind, paper vs plastic bobbin, etc. Also bandwidth is different. Most marshal style OT's cut bass and highs a little. Hi Def OT' you hear about are 20Hz to 20K basically hi Fi. So the circuit has to be designed accordingly.

In saying all this, it is most likely your amp, flub and fizz is almost always in the preamp. The coupling cap values, preamp grid loads, cathode resistor/bypass cap values, etc effect bass roll-off and high frequency roll off.

If anything in my experience, Magnetic Component Transformers have less top and bottom in circuits i have tried them in.

The only way to compare OT's is in the exact same amp.



Keep in mind OT's are usually not the issue in most amps, but many stupid amp techs will tell you this and happily install a new one for you.

In fact an acquaintance of mine asked me if I could help him with his hand made fender Clone, stopped making sound. He took it to a so called respected amp tech in town. and the tech replaced the power supply caps and still no sound. Then the tech told him that his OT was bad as he had funny readings on it. Well I had the amp for 5 minutes up and running, was pretty obvious that the V1 preamp tube was bad since all the flash was gone, he has been gigging with the amp now for 2 months.


Here is a comparison Granger amps did a few years back. Magnetic Components hosts it on their site now.

http://www.classictone.net/PaperVsPlastic.html

Speaking of Sozo's did you ever read this?

http://www.sozoamplification.com/break_in.html

 

[baron55]

I like the MCI iron more that mercury magnetics, heyboer, hammond, or even the drake. The 2204 is a simple enough circuit that even a coupling cap change CAN make a difference. I also prefer the jj can caps to the f&t. In the end it's up to you. If you like the laney put it back in. Laney iron is really better than people give it credit for. If the bass is "too loose" drop the first coupling cap to 4n7. That seems to work better than replacing iron imho.

I also find the JJ cap cans sound better in Marshall Circuits than F&T, seem to accentuate more low mid punch. F&T seem more neutral.

 

[rockify]

I didn't particularly bond with my classic tone transformer, I tried all 3 in my marshall jvm410js
Heyboer, classic tone and mercury Magnetics

I actually liked the Heyboer the best as it was a little more "authentic" sounding to the Marshall history
I ended up with the mercury Magnetics because of the type of music I play though..Comtempory rock and slightly better for the sparkly clean stuff.

 

[baron55]

I've used Classic Tone in a Marshall and think they're great. BTW, how can you compare the tranny in your Laney to one in a different amp?

Exactly, you can't compare sound of transformers that are in completely different amps and circuits.

 

[Kapo_Polenton]

Thanks for the info guys, did some googling and came up with similar stories not related to the iron, but more to the sozos. Posts like these:

When I first installed the sozos I noticed that the sound was fuzzy and blurry until broken in ... but never harsh.

Fizz and blur, two excellent words for what I feel I am experiencing. Blur goes for the low end, fizz, everything else. Maybe this is the case here as well. I suppose the best way to test would be to swap out the caps in the preamp with a different manufacturer but maybe I should be patient and put more time on the amp to allow for break in. I've probably only put 3-4 hrs on it max between shutting it down, swapping a value here or there and playing with preamp tubes.

As for the Drake, I suppose it is unfair to compare iron in two diff amps with diff voltages and diff caps and resistors with 30+ years break in time.. I'll have to do a search to see about breaking these sozos in.

 

[baron55]

Thanks for the info guys, did some googling and came up with similar stories not related to the iron, but more to the sozos. Posts like these:

When I first installed the sozos I noticed that the sound was fuzzy and blurry until broken in ... but never harsh.

Fizz and blur, two excellent words for what I feel I am experiencing. Blur goes for the low end, fizz, everything else. Maybe this is the case here as well. I suppose the best way to test would be to swap out the caps in the preamp with a different manufacturer but maybe I should be patient and put more time on the amp to allow for break in. I've probably only put 3-4 hrs on it max between shutting it down, swapping a value here or there and playing with preamp tubes.

As for the Drake, I suppose it is unfair to compare iron in two diff amps with diff voltages and diff caps and resistors with 30+ years break in time.. I'll have to do a search to see about breaking these sozos in.

Sozo says you need to play the amp for 100 hrs.....

I have never been a big believer in high end boutique coupling caps, as long as they are good quality and of the dielectric I need (I am happy)

The Mallory 150, Wima's, etc are all good caps.

A member of a amp builders forum I belong to, took all the popular Polyester, polypropylene, and styrene caps, rand them on a test bed he made up for 100 hrs and did a tone test in the same exact amp, he also measured them to make sure they were as close as possible to stated values. You could tell the difference between polyester, polypropylene, and styrene. But you could not tell the difference between the brands of caps made form the same material and value.

Not saying Sozo's are bad, but changing brands of coupling caps of the same dielectric and value is not going to transform the tone of the amp. The values and preamp make up will do more of that.

 

[Kapo_Polenton]

I will say that i have listened to side by side clips of same amp with WIMA and SOZO replacement caps and the Sozo killed the WIMA in my mind so I would say that at the very least, there is a tonal difference between caps. Like you said though, the diff is more likely with how they are constructed and with what they are constructed rather than any special process between 3 caps made of the same underlying stuff.

 

[jerrydyer]

which one ?? i use them in all mine. never had a prob, no loose low end or fizzy anything, just big in your face rock. Its a Laney you say? I played a laney super pa almost exaclty like a marshall component wise but still sounded fizzy so, its some other components or circuit design or ??? aint the tranny /. unless you got a bad one. Ive been through about 3 dozen so far.

 

[Kapo_Polenton]

Well the only thing that is still laney is the choke, power transformer, and the chassis. Everything else is replaced. Jerry, what type of caps do you use in your builds? Any experience with sozos?

 

[baron55]

I will say that i have listened to side by side clips of same amp with WIMA and SOZO replacement caps and the Sozo killed the WIMA in my mind so I would say that at the very least, there is a tonal difference between caps. Like you said though, the diff is more likely with how they are constructed and with what they are constructed rather than any special process between 3 caps made of the same underlying stuff.

WIMA= Polypropylene Film

Sozo= Polyester Fim

Big difference in dieletric

Also keep in mind you can have 2 of the same caps same brand sound different because of the tolerances

 

[baron55]

Well the only thing that is still laney is the choke, power transformer, and the chassis. Everything else is replaced. Jerry, what type of caps do you use in your builds? Any experience with sozos?

Are you saying you just replaced components with he same values? Or the circuit is completely different?

 

[Kapo_Polenton]

No ( I mean yes i essentially replaced components with same values and no it is not a diff circuit) it's a straight up 2204 with a .68 bypass cap over v2 820 ohm for a little kick. That's it that's all. Everything else is stock values. I think it might actually be break in time. Put more time on it today and played it louder, didn't seem as bad. Still a tad stiff and fizzy but seemed tighter in the low end. Maybe that's what I want to hear but i pumped it last night a few hrs as i was comparing three amps so maybe slowly but surely it is breaking in.

 

[jerrydyer]

Well the only thing that is still laney is the choke, power transformer, and the chassis. Everything else is replaced. Jerry, what type of caps do you use in your builds? Any experience with sozos?

sozos are great and when I have them I use them but for the most pat. the white ones from CE Dist do just fine. I like those for coupling caps. I like orange drops for bright caps. I find weird values . bypass caps are either solen or audiphiler, whatever is in the drawer. I have some cool .68 polyehtelyne whatevers that sound killer. I have some .47 mustards that go in certain models.

 

[baron55]

No ( I mean yes i essentially replaced components with same values and no it is not a diff circuit) it's a straight up 2204 with a .68 bypass cap over v2 820 ohm for a little kick. That's it that's all. Everything else is stock values. I think it might actually be break in time. Put more time on it today and played it louder, didn't seem as bad. Still a tad stiff and fizzy but seemed tighter in the low end. Maybe that's what I want to hear but i pumped it last night a few hrs as i was comparing three amps so maybe slowly but surely it is breaking in.

Dump the 330uF bypass cap on the first gain stage and replace it with a .68uF or 1.0uF and the fizz and flub will be greatly reduced.

Also change the 330k plate to a 100K on the last gain stage, this will give you a ballsier and more throaty sound. The 330K is starving the plate and the cathode follower is also starving it, so that gain stage is a fizz machine.

The stock preamp is a flub fizz machine. There is more you can do to tighten it up. But this is a start

 

[lespaul6]

"Keep in mind OT's are usually not the issue in most amps, but many stupid amp techs will tell you this and happily install a new one for you"...

This is a truth you will not hear from many...

 

[Kapo_Polenton]

No ( I mean yes i essentially replaced components with same values and no it is not a diff circuit) it's a straight up 2204 with a .68 bypass cap over v2 820 ohm for a little kick. That's it that's all. Everything else is stock values. I think it might actually be break in time. Put more time on it today and played it louder, didn't seem as bad. Still a tad stiff and fizzy but seemed tighter in the low end. Maybe that's what I want to hear but i pumped it last night a few hrs as i was comparing three amps so maybe slowly but surely it is breaking in.

Dump the 330uF bypass cap on the first gain stage and replace it with a .68uF or 1.0uF and the fizz and flub will be greatly reduced.

Also change the 330k plate to a 100K on the last gain stage, this will give you a ballsier and more throaty sound. The 330K is starving the plate and the cathode follower is also starving it, so that gain stage is a fizz machine.

The stock preamp is a flub fizz machine. There is more you can do to tighten it up. But this is a start

Good tips thanks. I had done something similar on the old board when it was in but i pulled it and replaced it with a metro PTP style board. I'm dealing with stock values you'd find in a JCM800. .1 on first stage is a common mod though that i do really like.