Diezel Herbert at 120 watts vs 180 with Mesa Recto 2x12 cab

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polanzo

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There was a thread I researched here that involved pulling the two outer tubes on the Herbert to drop it to 120 watts. His concern was primarily volume levels though. My concern is power output. I've read varying opinions about playing the Herbert through a 2x12...so that is my question. The recto cab is only 120 watts, so it would be risky with the Herbert. Can the tubes be pulled and does that have higher degradation rate on the remaining power tubes? Is there any other ill effect of pulling the two outer tubes? I will mainly be playing mid sized clubs with generally enough volume to get over a loud rock drummer. Anything more and I'll just be mic'd up. I'm not going to be breaking windows with my volume, but it will be loud and I can't differentiate at what volume level will blow the recto speakers if I leave the head at 180 watts. I'd like to have a smaller rig these days without giving up the Herbert...thats why I'm posing these questions

I would appreciate any thoughts, ideas or suggestions you guys have...thanks.
 
I often run a Herbert with a Mills 2x12 w/150 watt Swamp Thangs. I wouldn't think the output>cab match would be a problem unless you're playing really loud.
 
Thanks. I guess im worried about where that power/ volume threshold is. You have 30 more watts in your cab too. Still wondering about pulling the tubes as an option.
 
Wattage and volume are not linearly related, and trying to skirt by within 10-30 watts on your load's rating is not a good idea. The Herbert is rated at 180 Watts clean rated output. Now, ignoring the fact that no venue on the planet would let you run a Herbert full-bore outside of an isolation box, a Herbert can easily produce over 200 watts at higher levels of harmonic distortion. I wouldn't recommend running a Herbert into a 2x12 cab with anything short of 120+ watt rated speakers if there's a chance you'll be running it at anything above half volume.

Pulling two power tubes does not guarantee you'll be converting 120 watts RMS through that speaker cabinet. 120 watts is a rough estimate. What's even trickier is that there is no hardline published threshold at when those speakers will die under signal. Speakers are frequency-dependant mechanical devices. One Vintage 30 might take 60 watts for 20 minutes before it finally gives in, whereas another might incur a torn cone or damaged voice coil from a particularly low percussive note from the guitar at something less than 60 watts. You just can't predict it accurately. I'd stick with all the power tubes, keep the amp at a stage-friendly volume and run it into a higher wattage speaker setup.
 
MississippiMetal":3n7ygn4w said:
Wattage and volume are not linearly related, and trying to skirt by within 10-30 watts on your load's rating is not a good idea. The Herbert is rated at 180 Watts clean rated output. Now, ignoring the fact that no venue on the planet would let you run a Herbert full-bore outside of an isolation box, a Herbert can easily produce over 200 watts at higher levels of harmonic distortion. I wouldn't recommend running a Herbert into a 2x12 cab with anything short of 120+ watt rated speakers if there's a chance you'll be running it at anything above half volume.

Pulling two power tubes does not guarantee you'll be converting 120 watts RMS through that speaker cabinet. 120 watts is a rough estimate. What's even trickier is that there is no hardline published threshold at when those speakers will die under signal. Speakers are frequency-dependant mechanical devices. One Vintage 30 might take 60 watts for 20 minutes before it finally gives in, whereas another might incur a torn cone or damaged voice coil from a particularly low percussive note from the guitar at something less than 60 watts. You just can't predict it accurately. I'd stick with all the power tubes, keep the amp at a stage-friendly volume and run it into a higher wattage speaker setup.
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You can't be assured of the output, nor the speaker capability. Both are as Mississippi said, unreliable. There is no advantage to attempting to get "close" to ANY speakers' max.

Much better rule of thumb is to use speakers that can handle twice as much load as you are throwing at them. I use two 4X12's, one with 4 V30's and one with 4 K100's. If I was going with a 2X12, I would definitely have speakers that could handle between 120-150 watts each :D
At the very least would be 90 watts each, but that is only with about 1/2 output max.

Good luck.
 
A comment based on years of experience and not from "engineer whitepaper" view-point. Im using only 2x12" cabs with all my amps (one cab per amp). Playing mainly with 7 and 8-string guitars. All of my cabs are loaded with Celestion V30s. I know that on paper there should be a risk to damage the speakers, but honestly I have never managed to reach those levels even though I play pretty loud - Neither, never I have been unheard in the mix. 4x12" is safer bet for sure, but 2x12" will work perfectly fine if you are not playing with bass and deep maxed out on ridiculous volumes.
 
That's just the point. Engineer "whitepaper" is not a rule to go by here. It's difficult to pinpoint an exact breaking point for these speakers, as it doesn't exist. But Celestion knows with more educated certainty than our own, that 60w RMS is a danger to these speakers. Anecdotal proof is a slippery slope when it comes to what's safe and what isn't.

Personally? I'd say give it a go if you can afford some new speakers. But if he's tremendously concerned with the speakers, I adhere to my previous advice here.
 
I fully agree, and it is definitely wise to pay attention to those figures. But there is no need to be overly concerned as long as one plays with volumes lower than what makes ears bleed. What comes to the second question of tubes, I would never start to pull-out tubes. The master volume works perfectly fine while letting the amp operate in conditions where it is designed.
 
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