Diezel Herbert Mk1 or MK2 ? Tighter than VH4?

[hopkinWFG]

Hi guys... been here on and off... and Diezel remains one of the top few amps i been wanting to try... i always been a VHT guy and love how dynamic and tight it sound...

I came to know a nice deal on a Diezel herbert which i think its MK1 (original)? And adding it to my collection with my VHT collection it seems exciting!

I am just wondering how tight and organic can the Herbert be among the Diezel amp?

Basically tighter than a VH4?
More organic than a VH4 ?

And i heard the channel 3 of the VH4 is the holy grail in Diezel tone... will i be able to tweak a Herbert to come close to the channel 3 of VH4?

The Mk1 was the first "original" Herbert and i have read Herbert Mk2 went thru a revision on its clean tone to have bigger headroom on cleaner cleans and a set of larger power transformer thats vertically mounted with the wires going thru hole... i hear because of these upgrades on the Herbert it has more "facepunch tone than the Mk1" and its somewhat less compressed than their earlier versions?

With these does it means i can swap the preamp tube to have it sound same as MK2 after owning a MK1 while have the abilities to retains the original circuit of the earlier Herbert ?

 

[belensky]

as far as Peter told, MK1, and MK2 sounds the same on CH2 and CH3.
MK1 has external bias points which is very handy.

VH4 seems to be a bit more stiffer sounding(maybe somewhat tighter) with a bit more clarity if you play some weird chords.
Herbert is faster and more percussive and bigger sounding.

there is video I made some time ago. Herbert vs VH4. yeah it's long, but I played there on different guitars, on all channels, with different tunings. timecode below video so you can skip on needed part

 

[hopkinWFG]

as far as Peter told, MK1, and MK2 sounds the same on CH2 and CH3.
MK1 has external bias points which is very handy.

VH4 seems to be a bit more stiffer sounding(maybe somewhat tighter) with a bit more clarity if you play some weird chords.
Herbert is faster and more percussive and bigger sounding.

there is video I made some time ago. Herbert vs VH4. yeah it's long, but I played there on different guitars, on all channels, with different tunings. timecode below video so you can skip on needed part

Yup i watch your nice video many times lol but my ears not as well trained to pick up the little details...

Do you think i could tweak the Herbeet 5o sound even 60% or 70 precent of hows likr on da channel 3 of VH4? I have heard if not wrong the VH4 channel 3 is the signature of diezel tone..

I suppose the VH4 is more 4D llikr than Herbert huh?

 

[rickenbacker198]

The subtitles of the differences between these amps is often polarizing.
To me , They are so much the same. Yet so different.

Herbert can’t do VH4 ch3 , nothing else can.
VH4 can’t get the evil saturation of Herbert. The grind is just pure menace.

VH4 really comes alive at volume , like 10 o’clock on master or higher.
At that level it is more 3D / organic and has a more classic Marshall bark than Herbert.
Herbert starts out sounding 3D , even at very low levels. Really loud it seems to flatten out , the power amp is super clean.
Herbert is more even sounding and the tone changes less when varying your attack or guitar volume vs. VH4.

Herbert sounds tight but feels loose to play.
VH4 feels super tight and sounds tight.

I’ve had Herb for a few years , VH4 since 01.
Still can’t pick....

 

[hopkinWFG]

Cool... does it means the Herbert is less reactive to how hard or soft you pick? Dynamics? I can get literally clean or semi clean if i pick lighter on overdrive channel on my VHT will Herbert be able so?

 

[belensky]

Herbert won't sound like VH4 and vice versa. they share similar Diezel tone, and as you can hear, can sound similar on record, but under hands they feel differently.

I think VH4 is less sensitive to how hard you play, if you have weak right hand VH won't sound juicy, there is some work required to make it sound good. Herbert accepts anything and more user-friendly.

I wouldn't call Diezel super tight amps, Mesa Mark can be more tighter, Diezels have enough tightness but sound big and alive and angry. Some modern records(especially done on digital modellers) can be overly tight the point of them sounding cartoonish. When I'm listening some of that records my ears get tired after couple minutes, a lot bands nowadays sound tight, but they doest sound mean, angry and doesn't have any attitude. so I don't get all thins rush for super tight sound...

Anyway, everybody associates Diezel tone with VH4, so if you after that go for VH4. I prefer Herbert, but will be happy with any of them. to bad I haven't heard a lot of hagen..

P.s check description, and comments below that video, couple times I described in words how different amps are.

 

[hopkinWFG]

Thanks belensky... just wonder to what extend will the Herbert be at on topic of players sensitivity? A rating of 1 to 10? Giving a judge on how you scale the VH4 being less sensitive?

I think Herbert will be a well known players amp to be "more players friendly" than VH4 but not to the extend that its totally effortless playing huh?

I am also looking at amp that i find myself putting some good effort on it.. not being a player's butter where effortless strength is required

 

[rickenbacker198]

Cool... does it means the Herbert is less reactive to how hard or soft you pick? Dynamics? I can get literally clean or semi clean if i pick lighter on overdrive channel on my VHT will Herbert be able so?

Everyone hears different remember that..

Herbert has great dynamics as does VH4.
They both clean up very well with reduced volume / attack.
It’s more to do with the mids.
The Herbert doesn’t bark as much when you dig in.
It’s not the drive I’m talking about it’s the tonal response.

In many ways the VH4 sounds and reacts like a Diezelized JCM800.
It feels kind of like a live wire. It can be brash and in your face. Always ready to fight.
Herbert is it’s own thing, a new creation. Smoother, more refined.

 

[belensky]

Thanks belensky... just wonder to what extend will the Herbert be at on topic of players sensitivity? A rating of 1 to 10?

It's hard question to answer cause we all different people. I think that Herbert a bit more sensitive that VH4, Hagen (according to Peters videos) even more sensitive than that.

As and bit off topic.. I played Soldano SL0 100 several times, and difference between two guitars(let say I'm comparing one Les Paul to other Les Paul to find the better) on SLO is more notisable than if you do guitar comparison through Diezel. you getting almost different tone with different guitar. On the other hand Diezel's have strong voice of it's own, no matter what kind of guitar you plug it, still will be Diezel. Some people like it others don't. I like it because I like Diezel sound, and by using different guitar I just have different flavour of Diezel awesomeness rather than different tone.
As Peter said somewhere " CH3 of VH4 was made the way so you can play trash metal on tele" So Diezel's are compressed amps, but they now squishy (like Marshall), some folks confuse squishiness and compression.. It doesn't mean you can get away with bad guitar and invest in amp only, good tone is all about all those little details.

Comparing to Herbert my Rectifier is more Squishy and less compressed. maybe because of that, recto is very picky about the guitar I plug in, almost everything will work with Diezel to some extend, but playing it through recto is good test to know what ie really this guitar about.

Also interesting thing I learned from making that "Herbert vs VH4" video is that with VH4 I prefer different guitars than I use to like with Herbert, so it's very important that your guitars works well with the amp. Maybe because of that I kept Herbert and let VH4 go. I more or less settled about my guitars, and changing main amp means changing guitars, pickups etc, no way I will do that. Nevertheless I'm gassing again for VH4, or Herbert MK3. recently I replaced JJ KT77, with Gold Lion genalex KT77 and it was big improvement im dynamic

if you can try them both, please try, if you can't, get the one that priced best. I remember when I was on the market for Diezel head(which was my dream amp since I was 18), I didn't know which one I want: VH4, Herbert, Hagen, but my budget was really tight(student right after high school with no real job) so I just went with the best deal I could find online, that was Herbert. turns out I wasn't wrong.

 

[hopkinWFG]

Thanks alot guys... i know roughly what you guys mean by having less tonal response... is the amount of effort on your picking hand you have to exert to let the amp play...

I have an example but maybe you guys wont understand what i try to point out lol...

Is like i have a very player's response amp and its tight in a way that you gotta pick harder and the amp will sing... well you pick softer it tends to speak softer to you almost to a point of initial breakups...

Imagine i then kick in a well known dirt pedal "boost" or etc... the tone which can be sound tighter than what it was without the boost... but find you tend to lose abit of the "player's response or reaction... another word it sound more sharp in tone "tighter" in a sense but it also feels "loose" almost like "plays like butter" and it plays effortlessly...

Will the term of a boosted amp i made an example of be more or less refers to the "Herbert" ? But just how buttery the Herbert play? As i like an amp that can be tight in a sense it just cuts off faster but not necessary sound like a razor sharp edge on ya tone...

I hear the MK2 has a take more less response on the V1 inturn it be what i describe as "players interaction" than the MK1 ? And its more in ya face ? I could think of having more high mids than what it used to ?

I may foree owning a MK2 be safer for me ... but again i have never play a Diezel before and i dont think i have the luxury of testing these nice sought after amps in person...

 

[Mailman1971]

I’ve owned the MK1 version of Herbert.
The VH4S twice. Both were ‘stereo’ versions.
Now I own the Herbert MK2.
I love the VH4. It’s super responsive tight. Like the best overall amp you can own.
Does it all.
I kept the Herbert (which can ALSO do it all) because it is little meaner voiced.
I play mostly hard rock / metal. Don’t care about cleans.
The ‘response ‘ ‘attack ‘ is super dynamic on the MK2.
Enjoyed the MK1. But the MK2 seems slightly different in a good way.
Maybe it’s my ears playing tricks on me.
But either way it’s a keeper.

 

[belensky]

Is like i have a very player's response amp and its tight in a way that you gotta pick harder and the amp will sing... well you pick softer it tends to speak softer to you almost to a point of initial breakups...

When I played VH4(ch3) it's was more like, if you pick hard it's nice and juicy, if you pick softly It's flattened out.
The thing is that VH4 is a bit slow to start(I mean just a little little bit) and fast to stop, it's almost like vh4 waiting for every singe harmonic and sub-harmonic, main tone to come into right place and hit you all at the same time.
Herbert is not like that, it's more like a bomb explosion, it's starts immediately, you don't have to hit guitar hard to crush everything around you(in a good way), but like any explosion it doesn't stop in a second. Herbert can be reasonably sharp sounding with mid cut set and presence high, but this isn't what Diezel's all about. I feel that Diezel in middle of bright/dark voice, and their FL cabs do a lot of that sharp tight voice.

maybe my description a bit odd or silly, but English isn't my fist language so im doing my best.

I don't think that diezels are super dynamic heads in that sense that you can go from hi-gain to clean by varying your picking, yeah it's clean ups fine, but it's still will have some dirt in it, and singe channel non-master volume amps like Plexi doing this cleaning up, break up, thing way better. Diezel is more compressed refined ready to record with minimal tweaking amps, that fun to play.

 

[hopkinWFG]

I’ve owned the MK1 version of Herbert.
The VH4S twice. Both were ‘stereo’ versions.
Now I own the Herbert MK2.
I love the VH4. It’s super responsive tight. Like the best overall amp you can own.
Does it all.
I kept the Herbert (which can ALSO do it all) because it is little meaner voiced.
I play mostly hard rock / metal. Don’t care about cleans.
The ‘response ‘ ‘attack ‘ is super dynamic on the MK2.
Enjoyed the MK1. But the MK2 seems slightly different in a good way.
Maybe it’s my ears playing tricks on me.
But either way it’s a keeper.

Haha... thanks mailman !!

 

[hopkinWFG]

Is like i have a very player's response amp and its tight in a way that you gotta pick harder and the amp will sing... well you pick softer it tends to speak softer to you almost to a point of initial breakups...

When I played VH4(ch3) it's was more like, if you pick hard it's nice and juicy, if you pick softly It's flattened out.
The thing is that VH4 is a bit slow to start(I mean just a little little bit) and fast to stop, it's almost like vh4 waiting for every singe harmonic and sub-harmonic, main tone to come into right place and hit you all at the same time.
Herbert is not like that, it's more like a bomb explosion, it's starts immediately, you don't have to hit guitar hard to crush everything around you(in a good way), but like any explosion it doesn't stop in a second. Herbert can be reasonably sharp sounding with mid cut set and presence high, but this isn't what Diezel's all about. I feel that Diezel in middle of bright/dark voice, and their FL cabs do a lot of that sharp tight voice.

maybe my description a bit odd or silly, but English isn't my fist language so im doing my best.

I don't think that diezels are super dynamic heads in that sense that you can go from hi-gain to clean by varying your picking, yeah it's clean ups fine, but it's still will have some dirt in it, and singe channel non-master volume amps like Plexi doing this cleaning up, break up, thing way better. Diezel is more compressed refined ready to record with minimal tweaking amps, that fun to play.

Ahh... am not a native english speaker too am an asian here... thanks for your every effort in making me more sense on the Diezel... i no doubt still have the curiosity to own a herbert... maybe am better by a tad more upper mids and face melting tones... i may wanna try a MK2 and also check da power for KT77 and 6550 and sovtek or mullards for V1

 

[Apex1Rg7X]

I have to ask since I don't think its been covered yet...what style of music are you playing? What kind of guitars, what tunings do you usually play in? Those are major factors here as well other than just the overall dynamics of the amps. Diezels have that "sound" and it is very clear what it is, same as your VHT/Fryette type amps which I own and love myself but they are quite different but not in a bad way. Like for me, the Herbert or Hagen seems like the logical choice since I'm more of a metal player and down tuning all of my guitars. The VH4 would suit me great if I played Adam Jones riffs all day long but I hardly do so it doesn't make sense for me. Honestly you cant go wrong with any Diezel for the most part but there are still some deciding factors that will go a long way in making the right choice hopefully.

 

[hopkinWFG]

I have to ask since I don't think its been covered yet...what style of music are you playing? What kind of guitars, what tunings do you usually play in? Those are major factors here as well other than just the overall dynamics of the amps. Diezels have that "sound" and it is very clear what it is, same as your VHT/Fryette type amps which I own and love myself but they are quite different but not in a bad way. Like for me, the Herbert or Hagen seems like the logical choice since I'm more of a metal player and down tuning all of my guitars. The VH4 would suit me great if I played Adam Jones riffs all day long but I hardly do so it doesn't make sense for me. Honestly you cant go wrong with any Diezel for the most part but there are still some deciding factors that will go a long way in making the right choice hopefully.

Thanks for chiming in... i have basically two jacksom soloist a recently acquired fender fsr and suhr classic.. i play metal but not certainly like many of you guys here who plays in a band context... am more of a hobbyist here who collect VHT amps and have love the tone of it from very tight raw tone of CLX and UL to the open thick tones of the 50CL and D120

I guess am done with Fryette tones as i already have an array of it... am going out of VHT to get something out of the reign.. i quickly think of the Herbert as i caught up with a few good offers lately ... the Mk1 is affordable and Mk2 is 700 bucks more i have a inner rush to tell myself to snag it off either MK1 or MK2 but my other part of me was telling me if the Herbert serves too compressed and less dynamic ie "player's interaction ie picking intensitve" am probably going to ditch it or feel bad about it....

I always been hearing clips in the past about diezel huge compressed tone... i did posted here somewhere few years back and forth and i thought i am done om diezel but today i find myself posting the same shit again lol

I read and learn alot from of VHT stuff and for most of my high gain amp has been the pittbulls, players could understand what i mean my players interaction as i felt its most fun of it putting effort picking or chugging, i always feel loosing it with a fair bit of dynamics and effort of play is pointless in my opinion and not fun anymore, players here will definately know what i mean as is not only about the tone output but also the feel of the amp thru your guitar strings...

Infact i felt the idea of boosting more gain and cutting down bass be greatly loosing the right hand factor lol

As boosting for gain it will sound sharp and tight but defeating the right hand work thingy... it literally become buttery and easy to play... great for solo hero but bad for riffs masters... not that i am one of it but many of what i do is to have fun interacting with an amp that has dynamics... is like fight with the guitar huh?! Lol

Thus i heard many herbert users comments some are really positive and some has really other side of his or her story about the amp...

Not to hurt anybody here but just honest talk here... i may wanna know how well these MK1 is like when chugging on channel 2 and 3.... will it have the right hand feel of loosing the work and literally becomes so touch sensitive that it plays buttery... ie an overdriven tube amp hitting a boost pedal with its gain dimed and loosing the picking intensity while tone is tight... or its a fine walk between dynamics , playability and tone... means brutal tones with reasonable amount of players picking/chugging effort to make the amp sing....