Diezel Herbert vs ENGL Powerball II

[MrFlexx]

I know that tone is hard to discuss, but I would love to know if anyone can share some pros och cons between the two? The tones that's most important to me is Cleans, Crunch and violin-like leads.
I mainly play in styles of Neal Schon, Andy Timmons, early Satriani, 80's hard rock and Doug Rappoport.

 

[boornhaard]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gq1J-yKQmvg

Both are compressed as hell, more metal than rock.

violoin-like leads, well , yes both. I think the BE100 Friedman, Shiva 20th, Ecstasy, Mesa Mark is more suited for styles of Neal Schon, Andy Timmons, early Satriani, 80's hard rock and Doug Rappoport.

 

[JohnRageOn]

Man PB costs 1/2 the price of Herbert, it is decent but not on the same league for sure.
I used to own a VH4 for 10 years. No ENGL stood next to it (had played with old PB on several occasions).
To my ears PB was even more compressed and sounded a bit 'metallic'. Also its highs and presence annoyed me.
For some, I know that Herbie is considered to be more compressed compared to VH4 but tbh that's not the case and trust me can do 80's stuff pretty good.

 

[MrFlexx]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gq1J-yKQmvg

Both are compressed as hell, more metal than rock.

violoin-like leads, well , yes both. I think the BE100 Friedman, Shiva 20th, Ecstasy, Mesa Mark is more suited for styles of Neal Schon, Andy Timmons, early Satriani, 80's hard rock and Doug Rappoport.

Eric has some nice tones there using the Herbert. Doesn’t sound like metal to me.

 

[MrFlexx]

Man PB costs 1/2 the price of Herbert, it is decent but not on the same league for sure.
I used to own a VH4 for 10 years. No ENGL stood next to it (had played with old PB on several occasions).
To my ears PB was even more compressed and sounded a bit 'metallic'. Also its highs and presence annoyed me.
For some, I know that Herbie is considered to be more compressed compared to VH4 but tbh that's not the case and trust me can do 80's stuff pretty good.

You’re saying your VH4 is more compressed? How would you compare it to the Herbert?
Which of those would you say is more flexible?

 

[JohnRageOn]

Man PB costs 1/2 the price of Herbert, it is decent but not on the same league for sure.
I used to own a VH4 for 10 years. No ENGL stood next to it (had played with old PB on several occasions).
To my ears PB was even more compressed and sounded a bit 'metallic'. Also its highs and presence annoyed me.
For some, I know that Herbie is considered to be more compressed compared to VH4 but tbh that's not the case and trust me can do 80's stuff pretty good.

You’re saying your VH4 is more compressed? How would you compare it to the Herbert?
Which of those would you say is more flexible?

I would say Herbert has more lows and its mid-cut function makes it suitable for more modern tunes. The level of compression is similar.
Keep in mind that most Herberts come with either 6550 or KT88. By it's nature it's less compressed than EL34 (most VH4 come with EL34s by default).
The cabs also play a huge role (actually on the tonal equation is about 40%, especially with high gain amps).

 

[MrFlexx]

Today I use a Marshall 1960BX with Greenbacks but I’m opened to buy a Diezel 4x12 cab. Would you suggest the front loaded or back loaded version?

 

[JohnRageOn]

I had the front loaded Diezel 4X12 /w V30s.
Never liked the V30 as a speaker though.
Too spiky for my taste (don't know if it's the right word).

Maybe your cab will 'smoothen' the whole setup and would give you a more 80s feel.

PS I do not underestimate V30s and they re very good speakers, especially for recording but after a while they break my nerves.

 

[shredhead7]

Man PB costs 1/2 the price of Herbert, it is decent but not on the same league for sure.
I used to own a VH4 for 10 years. No ENGL stood next to it (had played with old PB on several occasions).
To my ears PB was even more compressed and sounded a bit 'metallic'. Also its highs and presence annoyed me.
For some, I know that Herbie is considered to be more compressed compared to VH4 but tbh that's not the case and trust me can do 80's stuff pretty good.

I am the exact opposite. I owned a VH4 and traded it for an SE. I owned a Powerball at the same time as both. To me, the VH4 was too sterile, clinical. It was incredibly tight, but there was no roar (aside from loudness) and certainly no sag. It was the note and nothing more; like a Fender Twin cranked, without the nice overtones. Certainly a popular amp, just my mileage was different.

The Engl has its weaknesses as well. You touched on some of them, which is the compression and "metallic" overtones, which are fizzy. If you have never played an Engl and are a fan of Sneap produced records, it's like finding that sound in a head. (I know that he uses 5150's, but he post produces the hell out of them). I still own the SE, but there is something in the Powerball and the SE that is a little digital/processed that I don't care for. It took me 6 years to find it irritating, so it can't be that bad.

As to the OP, I don't think either of these amps are really what you're looking for, TBH. The Engl's don't do crunch very well and the cleans are to the point of DI, they are so clipped (the Diezel wasn't much better). I think that if you have the cash, I would go more the route of Timmons, since that is what you are looking for, or if the Mesa doesn't interest, all of the other guys you listed are using Marshalls, so focus on Marshall variants.

 

[boornhaard]

Man PB costs 1/2 the price of Herbert, it is decent but not on the same league for sure.
I used to own a VH4 for 10 years. No ENGL stood next to it (had played with old PB on several occasions).
To my ears PB was even more compressed and sounded a bit 'metallic'. Also its highs and presence annoyed me.
For some, I know that Herbie is considered to be more compressed compared to VH4 but tbh that's not the case and trust me can do 80's stuff pretty good.

I am the exact opposite. I owned a VH4 and traded it for an SE. I owned a Powerball at the same time as both. To me, the VH4 was too sterile, clinical. It was incredibly tight, but there was no roar (aside from loudness) and certainly no sag. It was the note and nothing more; like a Fender Twin cranked, without the nice overtones. Certainly a popular amp, just my mileage was different.

The Engl has its weaknesses as well. You touched on some of them, which is the compression and "metallic" overtones, which are fizzy. If you have never played an Engl and are a fan of Sneap produced records, it's like finding that sound in a head. (I know that he uses 5150's, but he post produces the hell out of them). I still own the SE, but there is something in the Powerball and the SE that is a little digital/processed that I don't care for. It took me 6 years to find it irritating, so it can't be that bad.

As to the OP, I don't think either of these amps are really what you're looking for, TBH. The Engl's don't do crunch very well and the cleans are to the point of DI, they are so clipped (the Diezel wasn't much better). I think that if you have the cash, I would go more the route of Timmons, since that is what you are looking for, or if the Mesa doesn't interest, all of the other guys you listed are using Marshalls, so focus on Marshall variants.

my words, Man there are tons of Marshall based amps, incredible touch sensitive, like a Bogner Helios, Friedman BE100, BE50, Silver Jubilee. I guess when you talk violin like lead tone, it implies also touch sensitivity under the fingers. The Diezels and Engl are compressed (and tight, and modern with low mids of course), but not touch sensitive. On the other side you have traditional Marshalls, these are not compressed but touch sensitive. Try to find the amps between these 2 extremes. There are tons of variations as mentioned.

 

[Wizard of Ozz]

As to the OP, I don't think either of these amps are really what you're looking for, TBH. The Engl's don't do crunch very well and the cleans are to the point of DI, they are so clipped (the Diezel wasn't much better). I think that if you have the cash, I would go more the route of Timmons, since that is what you are looking for, or if the Mesa doesn't interest, all of the other guys you listed are using Marshalls, so focus on Marshall variants.

+1 Bingo.

Cleans and mid-crunch... not really the strong points of any Engl or Diezel for that matter. Between the two mentioned by the OP... Herbert.

But honestly a Marshall (or derivative like Suhr PT100) or Mesa Mark series would be much better suited to the task you require.

 

[Wizard of Ozz]

If you have never played an Engl and are a fan of Sneap produced records, it's like finding that sound in a head. (I know that he uses 5150's, but he post produces the hell out of them). I still own the SE, but there is something in the Powerball and the SE that is a little digital/processed that I don't care for. It took me 6 years to find it irritating, so it can't be that bad.

Right on. I also own a SE EL34 and what you said above sums up what it does best. It gives you the miced/recorded/post-processed/mastered sound right out of the amp without any of the studio tricks needed to get there. No added high/low filters, compression, eq, nothing. It's not super raw and flat... but it does sound dam good for any sort of modern metal.

 

[Wizard of Ozz]

Keep in mind that most Herberts come with either 6550 or KT88. By it's nature it's less compressed than EL34 (most VH4 come with EL34s by default).

Incorrect. For the last several years both the VH4 and Herbert have been shipping from the factory with JJ KT77s which is much closer sounding to a EL34 than any other tube. Peter D actually advises against using 6550s or KT88s as they draw too much current and can produce too much heat.

I'm not a fan of KT88s in the Herbert... never tried them in my VH4. No desire to either. KT77s or EL34s work/sound best to me.

 

[JohnRageOn]

Keep in mind that most Herberts come with either 6550 or KT88. By it's nature it's less compressed than EL34 (most VH4 come with EL34s by default).

Incorrect. For the last several years both the VH4 and Herbert have been shipping from the factory with JJ KT77s which is much closer sounding to a EL34 than any other tube. Peter D actually advises against using 6550s or KT88s as they draw too much current and can produce too much heat.

I'm not a fan of KT88s in the Herbert... never tried them in my VH4. No desire to either. KT77s or EL34s work/sound best to me.

Dont' get me wrong but when I had VH4 and then when Herbert came out, those were the factory defaults.
I had a friend who had a VH4S and put KT88 but it sounded weird.
TBH its power stage has not been voiced for those tubes.

For the last 8 years I own a VHT Ultra-Lead with matching cab.
I do not consider changing this amp.

Also, I did not compare to SE but to a PB (which for the money it costs might be considered a good option).

Cheers

 

[MrFlexx]

I play a Friedman Smallbox today and it sounds great but there’s something missing. Can’t pinpoint what it is, but from some clips I’ve heard from Andy Wood and a Eric Steckel it sounds great. I’ve heard that George Lynch is using it too and he got some tones. Maybe if I get a Herbert and modify channel 2 to sound a bit less compressed? There’s a really great amp guru here in Sweden that probably can fix that.

 

[chondroguitars]

If you talking Diezel, that means you got the cash for a Soldano SLO 100. IMO, top 5 amp ever created.