"Dimed" Marshall's

[IndyWS6]

The thread from "samtheman" reminded me of a question I wanted to ask. Or maybe I asked it before, but lost the brain cell the answer was stored on. Regardless...

"Diming" an amp means that you turn the SOB all the way up, correct? All knobs on "10"? If so, how is that even possible? I don't have a Marshall (yet) , but I have a 100W H&K Switchblade. I have never been able to turn the master volume past three - ever. We played an outdoor gig a few weeks ago with a massive PA and I actually needed a little more stage volume; when I checked the dial, I had turned the master all the way up to "2 1/4". I know that the difference in the volume change from "0" to "3" is substantially more than it would be from "3" to "10" (it's not exponential...), but 100 watts, fully cranked, would be brutally loud, right? On "3", in a 2-car garage practice space, my amp is so loud that it's physically painful.

Aside from the volume question, how do you tame an amp at that level? At "3", with a high-gain preset loaded up, I would have to wrap my guitars in a blanket to control feedback. Granted, my amp is only 6 feet away, but even if I'm on the other side of the room, at high-volume and high-gain settings, it's a bear to manage.

Sam was sitting in a room with his Marshall's - dimed. I know that some of them were 50 watters, but the volume difference at full bore is almost negligible. Assuming that no attenuation devices were harmed in the making of the videos, how is that possible? How is Sam still concious? I haven't tried it, but I don't see how I could pull that off. I suspect my amp is on par with a 100W Marshall in terms of how loud it can get so I'm curious how you guys/gals control the beast.

Sorry for being a n00b...

 

[jerrydyer]

thats the beauty of old marshalls. dime em and use the volume control on the guitar. They arent high gain really so........if youve done it you would be addicted to it. the amp has to be set up right and in great shape. but its perfection.

 

[IndyWS6]

thats the beauty of old marshalls. dime em and use the volume control on the guitar. They arent high gain really so........if youve done it you would be addicted to it. the amp has to be set up right and in great shape. but its perfection.

But even with the gain backed down, wouldn't 100 watts be brutally loud? With the H&K, even a completely clean setting at anything above "3" on the master volume will sterilize small woodland creatures....

 

[dstroud]

thats the beauty of old marshalls. dime em and use the volume control on the guitar. They arent high gain really so........if youve done it you would be addicted to it. the amp has to be set up right and in great shape. but its perfection.

Right on. When I got my 1st nmv Marshall type amp my amp search ended. I usually run my masters about 7 and hit it with a ts. Above 7 doesn't get louder, just more gain. Its really loud, but its a magical loud with sustain and compression, but necessarily a lot if gain. If my hands are dampening the strings it doesn't feed back as long as I'm 3-4 feet from the amp. I couldn't do a club gig at that volume, but I could see it on a big stage. I do dig my ho attenuator.

 

[JakeAC5253]

thats the beauty of old marshalls. dime em and use the volume control on the guitar. They arent high gain really so........if youve done it you would be addicted to it. the amp has to be set up right and in great shape. but its perfection.

But even with the gain backed down, wouldn't 100 watts be brutally loud? With the H&K, even a completely clean setting at anything above "3" on the master volume will sterilize small woodland creatures....

Theory - If you've never had the amp much higher on the dial than you've had it now, it may be that it doesn't get much louder after that point anyway. It is common to use Audio taper pots for the master volume control in amps rather than a linear pot. What this does is put about 66% of the pot's resistance in the first 33% of travel, and the remaining 33% of resistance over the final 66% of travel. It probably won't get much louder over 3 or 4, especially when you factor in speaker and power tube distortion. Once those headrooms are taken up, amps don't get louder.

 

[jerrydyer]

thats the beauty of old marshalls. dime em and use the volume control on the guitar. They arent high gain really so........if youve done it you would be addicted to it. the amp has to be set up right and in great shape. but its perfection.

But even with the gain backed down, wouldn't 100 watts be brutally loud? With the H&K, even a completely clean setting at anything above "3" on the master volume will sterilize small woodland creatures....

ive never seen a HK schematic so....??
I know I couldnt dime my boogie mark III but I prob wouldnt want too..... some amps sound crappy dimed. they feedback. thats why so much Marshall love.

 

[rockstah]

Think of a volume control on an old Marshall as a gain knob. (that's what it really is in my eyes)
Past 4-5 it really doesn't get much louder but it does add gain. This why people like to "dime" , it where tone comes into play.
Mark

 

[dstroud]

thats the beauty of old marshalls. dime em and use the volume control on the guitar. They arent high gain really so........if youve done it you would be addicted to it. the amp has to be set up right and in great shape. but its perfection.

But even with the gain backed down, wouldn't 100 watts be brutally loud? With the H&K, even a completely clean setting at anything above "3" on the master volume will sterilize small woodland creatures....

ive never seen a HK schematic so....??
I know I couldnt dime my boogie mark III but I prob wouldnt want too..... some amps sound crappy dimed. they feedback. thats why so much Marshall love.

I had a mesa dc-3 that didn't sound good cranked. I didn't think my DSL sounded good cranked either. My peavey classic amps really come alive cranked as well as my Marshall type nmv and my egnater seminar.

 

[IndyWS6]

thats the beauty of old marshalls. dime em and use the volume control on the guitar. They arent high gain really so........if youve done it you would be addicted to it. the amp has to be set up right and in great shape. but its perfection.

But even with the gain backed down, wouldn't 100 watts be brutally loud? With the H&K, even a completely clean setting at anything above "3" on the master volume will sterilize small woodland creatures....

Theory - If you've never had the amp much higher on the dial than you've had it now, it may be that it doesn't get much louder after that point anyway. It is common to use Audio taper pots for the master volume control in amps rather than a linear pot. What this does is put about 66% of the pot's resistance in the first 33% of travel, and the remaining 33% of resistance over the final 66% of travel. It probably won't get much louder over 3 or 4, especially when you factor in speaker and power tube distortion. Once those headrooms are taken up, amps don't get louder.

I get that... The volume increase between "3" and "10" is much less than from "0" to "3", and maybe stops adding anything noticeable past a certain point. I'm not sure because at "3", it's stupid loud. I've tried to turn it up just for the hell of it, but my kidneys start vibrating and I piss blood

Just wondering, assuming that most 100W heads have largely similar volume capabilitie, how you caould actually "dime" one, sit in the same room and live to tell about it. Must just be the magic of a Marshall

 

[IndyWS6]

thats the beauty of old marshalls. dime em and use the volume control on the guitar. They arent high gain really so........if youve done it you would be addicted to it. the amp has to be set up right and in great shape. but its perfection.

But even with the gain backed down, wouldn't 100 watts be brutally loud? With the H&K, even a completely clean setting at anything above "3" on the master volume will sterilize small woodland creatures....

ive never seen a HK schematic so....??
I know I couldnt dime my boogie mark III but I prob wouldnt want too..... some amps sound crappy dimed. they feedback. thats why so much Marshall love.

This amp seems to have good tone when you crank it, although it definitely requires some EQ tweaks as the volume increases. Maybe it's just the volume pot that they use. On "0", there is no output (naturally), but it instantly goes from the point on the dial where it just starts making noise to a level that is almost too much for bedroom playing. It's very sensitive around the start of the control. It then ramps drastically. Like you say, it might taper off halfway up the dial and add very little additional volume. I'll have to find a time and a place (no neighbors) (and ear plugs) to experiment

 

[IndyWS6]

Think of a volume control on an old Marshall as a gain knob. (that's what it really is in my eyes)
Past 4-5 it really doesn't get much louder but it does add gain. This why people like to "dime" , it where tone comes into play.
Mark

Thanks... I need to talk to you some time about an amp and see what would suit. I really dig the clips that you post and would love to have that sound, but I also need a good, useable clean channel. A switcher that could cop the EVH / Brown / 80's Hair vibe along with a clean channel that could do a respectable Matchbox 20 "Push" kind of tone. A pedigreed, cover band jack-of-all-trades amp. Maybe that's an easy thing to accomplish in a Marshall mod - I don't know. I don't know shit about Marshall's, but I know I like the sound of a lot of the ones you demo...

 

[rottingcorpse]

back in the early 80's, the guy i played with ran his 2 marshall halfstacks in stereo dimed with rockman power soaks. (he did roll off the treble slightly). still, to this day, it was one of the sweetest tones i have ever heard. he did retube twice a year, because we were pulling 3 sets a night 5 nights a week. when he was doing periodic amp maint, he would just say "it's worth it."

 

[reverymike]

Make no mistake, it IS brutally loud. But, that's the price to pay for getting the magic out of an old marshall.

People do all sorts of things to combat the volume (attenuators, face the 4x12 backwards, etc). I once did a gig with a 1971 100 watt marshall and had to put the PA mixer roadcase lid in front of my cabinet to completely block it from killing the audience and soundman. Looking back on that gig on video, it is still one of the best tones I've ever had.

 

[IndyWS6]

back in the early 80's, the guy i played with ran his 2 marshall halfstacks in stereo dimed with rockman power soaks. (he did roll off the treble slightly). still, to this day, it was one of the sweetest tones i have ever heard. he did retube twice a year, because we were pulling 3 sets a night 5 nights a week. when he was doing periodic amp maint, he would just say "it's worth it."

Could you heat a small village with the Power Soak's?

 

[Cornfordcrunch]

Nothing....NOTHING....sounds like a flat out Marshall through a good cabinet with a Les Paul or good Strat. I always ran the bass off on mine and it still had plenty of beef down low....but it makes a man out of you if plug straight in.....not much to hide behind and very unforgiving...can't go in half assed or the amp will be chew you up and spit you out.The biggest thing people overlook when trying to get the Van Halen type tone is how Eddie beat the ever loving shit out of the guitar when he picked.

 

[reverymike]

Yes, Ed's right hand practically punches the strings, so the pickups are getting pummeled.

 

[Badronald]

I've used my JTM45 (30 watts) for many gigs for the last five or so years. I can count on one hand how many times I've been able to "dime" it. It's VERY loud. Fortunately for me it sounds good around 3 on the dial. Does it sound as good as it does on 10? No.

My 150 watt Triple Rec will crack a foundation.

I think you need a permit or something to get permission from the government to "dime" a Mesa Triple Rectifier.

 

[Anonymous]

The biggest thing people overlook when trying to get the Van Halen type tone is how Eddie beat the ever loving shit out of the guitar when he picked.

I've been saying this for years. If you don't pick insane heavy, you won't get that sound even with his original rig. Watch his left hand as well - also heavy, heavy touch...

Steve

 

[AndyK]

I think "diming" applies to the volume knob or knobs. The tone knobs still need to be tweaked. Dime the bass, and you have mush! Dime the treble, and you cut head off! Know what I mean?

Also, there are some Marshalls that don't like to be dimed. The newer multi channel stuff comes to mind. Anything over 7 on the master sounds like overkill. Even my Vintage Modern didn't like being full up on the volume.

 

[IndyWS6]

The biggest thing people overlook when trying to get the Van Halen type tone is how Eddie beat the ever loving shit out of the guitar when he picked.

I've been saying this for years. If you don't pick insane heavy, you won't get that sound even with his original rig. Watch his left hand as well - also heavy, heavy touch...

Steve

Sure wish I knew the secret (or had the skill) for that. If I cut loose with a heavy left hand, I just pull everything out of tune and my already atrocious playing becomes even more apparent. I have a fairly strong right hand and the outside edge of my thumb can be an adequate battering ram, so I can hammer the piss out of a set of strings but, once again, finesse and control elude me for the most part.

Long story short, he's Eddie - I never will be.