Herbert, VH4, XTC, Uberschall - comparison - long one

  • Thread starter Thread starter nbarts
  • Start date Start date
nbarts

nbarts

New member
I guess I should start with that these are very different animals. Bogner XTC 101B with no doubt is the most versatile head I’ve ever had to deal with & very complex. I really can not picture somebody demoing it in the store; hell, it took me about an hour only to figure out what is what on this amp. My both Diezel heads together can’t cover nearly enough ground as one XTC (sorry Peter). Don’t get me wrong, I love my Diezel heads a lot more than the XTC, I even like my Uberschall more than the XTC & my 2 Diezels get 95% of the studio work for me, but if a studio owner asked me for a single head to cover a wide variety of music (pop/jazz/blues/rock/metal/etc), I would recommend an XTC 101B without hesitating for a second. I find it difficult to imagine something that it won’t do.

I’m gonna compare all the 4 amps at once so I don’t have to come back to this again.

Bogner Uberschall Blue Revision JJ EL34s (preferred pickups: EMG81s)
Bogner XTC 101B 2008 JJ EL34s (preferred pickups: Duncan ‘59/JB)
Diezel Herbert Second Revision Rudy EL34s (preferred pickups: Burstbuckers, 490/498)
Diezel VH4 2007 TAD EL34s (preferred pickups: Classic 57s, 490/498)

My comparison will be for studio performance & not live playing. I’ve tested both Diezels & the 101B with MXR EQ before the input, cutting a little at 250hz & very minor adjustments at other frequencies which I don’t remember. Uberschall was direct. Everything went through a Bogner OS 2x12 with v30s.

Cleans & not only:

101B Channel 1 - Clean channel on XTC can go from fender tweed cleans (which sounds mind blowing good with the nicest top end I’ve ever heard) to dirty cleans & a few other variations of clean tones all sounding from amazing to good & non less (imagine 3 pre EQ settings + boost + 3 different variations of excursion (tight/medium/loose) on each channel, these features already make your head spin & yet in addition to this plexi mod, old/new style, A/AB switch if you get the option! Mr. Bogner, you are a genius! I’ll be honest with you, there are a lot of sounds in this head that I’m not even aware of, it can take forever to explore it).

VH4 Channel 1 - VH4 cleans are not really clean cleans, the channel breaks up pretty fast. I found VH4 to be very specially voiced amp on all the 4 channels, that’s where its strong point is, this is NOT a pop amp, this amp sounds like a grown up musician in his 60s, calm, but experienced, not aggressive, but can kick the young man’s butt if he has to. VH4 is very very tight, I haven’t experienced this even with VHT amps, which are tight as hell & dryer than the Diezels. If you mute the strings, expect a full stop; I don’t know how, it’s like there is a short attack & release noise gate, only there isn’t one! Mr. Diezel, you are a genius! Cleans go from somewhat gritty cleans to a little breakup cleans. You could sit down I play this channel & feel like you had an acoustic guitar in your hands; some cool arpeggios, some blues, some classical, some strumming - all sound non less than amazing & tight & if you have a good sounding guitar you will notice the wood, as you would with an acoustic guitar. If I was sitting home & wanted to enjoy playing some clean electric guitar, VH4 ch1 is what I’d be turning on. Compared to 101B this sounds nothing alike.

Herbert Channel 1 - Herbert cleans have incorporated some modern cleans in the tone. This is a true clean channel with some tweedish vibe with a distant voicing/grit of the old man (VH4). This is the disciple of the VH4, young, a lot of energy, aggressive & in some way this is like the pupil has become the master, only the old man can kick the young man’s butt if he has to :) . Midcut feature gives additional variety of tones, I keep finding more & more with different EQ & midcut settings, the midcut on Herbert is really not one day job to comprehend. Compared to VH4 & XTC, Herbert cleans are exactly in the middle of the two IMO. The clean channel of any of these 3 amps is a work of art, I personally have never heard cleans as good as these, whether live or recorded & I’m not talking about metal or rock sound only.

Uberschall Channel 1 - Uberschall cleans are really not voiced to be used as a clean channel as far as I’m concerned. This channel was voiced to run pedals with it & since I don’t use pedals (besides of EQs & WAHs) I can’t really tell how good it is. However you can get some useable rock cleans out of it & with the right guitar it can sound pretty damn good & warm. I’ve tried to clean boost this channel to get into the blues territory & it didn’t sound good at all. Next to the other 3 amps this channel will possibly sound bigger, however it is not even in the same league to compare.


Channel 2

Blue Channel 101B – this is a channel with a very special voicing, which can go from mild dirty to blues dirty, rock & all the way to metal dirty riffing if you want. It sounds very romantic as well as probably every channel of 101B does (for lack of a better word). I bet people who solo a lot would dig 101B ch2 & 3 big time. Put some delay with a good player soloing on it & it will probably make you shed a few tears. Ch2 has a very smooth distortion to it, although it can get really dirty, it’s not really aggressive & is pretty loose. I find this channel voiced very smart, it is not a channel that will get lost in the mix, but also will stay out of the way of vocals. I find this as an important quality, because mixes sound wider this way & guitars surround vocals, instead of forcing you to bring them down in the mix & sound far or in the back. Again having excursion with 3 modes will just make your head spin. I have to say that running 101B with Mesa Traditional 4x12 with v30s was a nightmare, it wasn’t really able to handle this beast, half of excursion settings were useless with this cabinet. It’s totally different experience running it with a Bogner cabinet.

VH4 Channel 2 – this is the single do it all Diezel channel, dirty cleans, blues, rock crunch, metal riffing & all of it using one gain knob. It’s more dynamic than ch3 & ch4.
Although this channel is very versatile & it can do many things, it does it in its special VH4 way, this is not the usual guitar sound you’re used to hear on the radio. Compared to the 101B blue channel this is very different, although there are some very distant similarities. VH4 is dry, tight, not mid heavy; 101B is the opposite. I like this channel with the bright switch off, however I should probably mention that I run my presence between 3-4:00. I really liked the blues sound of this channel. To avoid any confusion it doesn’t sound like classic American blues sound at all, it’s very innovative blues channel that has 21st century voicing with vintage vibe to it. If a blues band performed using this channel it would sound killer & it would be difficult to pass around it without a notice. This channel can be easily used in pop music, where vocal & beats play a big role, it would be a nice track for a mixing engineer to work with, transparent & present. It is also a great rock channel & not extreme heavy metal. For styles like alternative/progressive (is that what they call it?) I would more gravitate towards 101B & Herbert ch2; Herbert for more transparent sound & 101B for more guitar heavy sound.

Herbert Channel 2 – in “-“ position it goes from clean to light tube breakup to something like blues. The cleans on this channel sound wider than the ch1 cleans, which works very well by mixing the 2 of them together. All other tones here are not the usual guitar sound you’re used to hear on the radio, but man they have such a transparency, it’s amazing! “+” position goes from rock crunch to heavy metal, very brutal & transparent at the same time, smooth & wide. You can do a lot on this channel, it can cover all kinds of music & whatever you do you are not going to sound like the millions of other bands you’ve been hearing for the last 50 years & yes, this is the reason I like the Herbert over any other amplifier I’ve tried. If you want this wideness, but more brutalness VH4 channel 4 is where you should be looking at. Again, the midcut feature gives additional variety of tones & again, I keep finding more & more with different EQ & midcut settings. Still after owning the amp for more than a year now, I find myself using this feature rarely or with very low (below 8:00) intensity settings, however those who prefer rectifier like tones will find it very useful. Compared to the other 2 this is nothing similar, the only thing that makes it a little similar to VH4 CH2 is being a Diezel, other than that this is a different territory IMO. Next to 101B & VH4 I wouldn’t use this channel for blues. If I had to play blues with Herbert I'd use EVM12L speaker, believe me this is something special. Ch2 in the room with EVM speaker is a different experience, you will have to try to know what I'm talking about. While I found it harsh for recording directly in front of the speaker (in Mesa 1x12 Thiele), it was something phenomenal I've never heard previously in the room.

Uberschall Channel 2 - the king of nu-metal riffs with scooped sound, only you achieve this by NOT scooping the mids, instead you roll down the presence. You can try this with both Diezels & XTC & you will probably get somewhat close, but not really there. This channel rivals with some beautiful mids & low mids with extreme saturation. I remember reading somewhere that Uberschall dirty channel is like you have your car stuck on the last gear & that’s probably the best description of this channel. Whatever you do there is this chunk of gain accompanying you & amazingly the amp stays defined despite of it. This is a true very dirty, aggressive & loose metal channel, I wouldn’t even think of using it for anything else, which brings Bogner Uberschall being the most expensive amplifier out of all four, comparing them by price/versatility ratio, but no doubt it’s a very special metal machine. This channel is more comparable to Ch3 Herbert, Ch3 101B & Ch4 VH4, it’s more loose & low mid heavy than the other 3. 101B with excursion set to L is starting to hit near this territory, but doesn’t get the type of saturation, aggressiveness & thump that Uberschall has. Herbert can get just as aggressive as the Uberschall, but tighter & not as mid heavy. VH4 gets insanely saturated like the Uberschall with some good full mids, but the tightness of the VH4 is the exact opposite to the looseness of the Uberschall.


Channel 3

Red Channel 101B – this channel is slightly different voiced ch2 with more gain, enough different to make it aggressive & tight metal channel or a great lead channel. Trust me you won’t need to boost it with pedals; you most likely won’t even go over 1:00 on this channel.

VH4 Channel 3 – I have to admit I bought the VH4 exclusively for this channel & ended up not using it much. After spending some time with VH4 I default on ch1 & ch4 with very low gain settings & ch2 if I’m not looking for a very aggressive sound. And this is why: I found the voicing of this channel take up too much of the vocal frequencies, when ch2 & ch4 in the mix let the vocal cut through easily & sound wider. Let’s say you want a very aggressive riff with the lead singer doing his stuff over it. You do this with ch3 & you get your singer swallowed by the VH4, switch to ch4 & the singer cuts through nicely & you get all the aggressiveness you need. Now if you do something like Tool (which I’m mentioning because I know a lot of folks buy this amp listening to Adam) with low RMS levels & guitars kind of distant with Maynard’s voice over it, then it’s fine, but in case you are after more modern upfront sound you may face some difficulties with ch3. Look, I’m not saying this isn’t a good channel, this is actually a very good channel, you can do good quality recording with it & I’d imagine for live playing it would kick some ass & cut through like no other amp in this comparison would, but this is not really what I’d be looking for in a recording situation. I can definitely hear some distant Marshall sound coming from ch3 & 4. VH4 ch3 is definitely designed as a rhythm channel, more low end, more forward, more tightness, very defined sound. You could easily use it as a lead channel too.

Herbert Channel 3 – Herbert channel 3 can be used both as an aggressive rhythm channel or lead channel. It can be very aggressive, loose or tight, depending on your settings, very responsive to the set of pickups you are driving it with. I remember running it with JB with Daddario 12-54s on the guitar & it sounded so tight it was frightening; I haven’t heard anything like this anywhere else in my life. Big lows that Herbert has are making this channel especially interesting to me. Compared to ch2 it doesn’t sounds as full & wide, which makes sense, since this is a lead channel. I have to say I prefer VH4 ch4 as a lead channel over ch3 Herbert, mainly because of the feel, however if you like more violin voiced soloing, Herbert is the amp that will make you happy. This is not a so-so lead channel, it is as killer as it gets. For less compressed, more romantic type of leads 101b (blue channel) is a better choice IMO, otherwise channel 3 Herbert is a higher level of clarity & tone compared to 101b ch3 IMO. For aggressive rhythm metal players channel 3 & channel 2+ on this amp will probably outperform just about anything, this is the most aggressive metal sound I’ve ever experienced. It wouldn’t be my first choice for nu-metal loose low end type of sound, as loose as Herbert is, it is still tight, it’s loose compared to VH4.

Channel 4

VH4 Channel 4 – The first time I’ve tried this channel (gain at noon) I thought there is no way I’m using this, way too much gain. A few days later I gave it another try & this time I brought down the gain set before 8:00. I’ve plugged my Edwards with Gibson Classic 57 pickups & played a few riffs & I was hooked to this channel. This is probably as good and relentless as it gets & the same time transparent, what a work of art! If you’ve ever heard Cameron modified Marshalls with extreme gain, this sounds very close, only better IMO. This is also an amazing lead channel, probably one of the best, it’s the best lead channel in my book.

101B Plexi - Plexi mod on channel 2 & 3 sound the same to me. Like the manual says the more you crank it up, the better it sounds. Clips on Bogner website represent this mode very nicely IMO. You are not going to get plexi mod kind of sound out of the VH4 as far as I know, since I’ve been asked.


Read about Herbert/EVM12L & 2 V30s with Gibson 490/498 below.
 
+1 on almost everything you said, especially the description of the herbert lead as more violin like, which is something i really, really like and put this amp as front runner for me :D
peace
A Wood
 
Thanks for the review nbarts.
Oh man,i cant wait for my vh4 to land.
Have you play the uberschall and vh4 together live or in studio?
How they sound together?
And also nbarts,why not emg 81 with vh4?
 
van hellion":2ui3dkd7 said:
+1 on almost everything you said, especially the description of the herbert lead as more violin like, which is something i really, really like and put this amp as front runner for me :D
peace
A Wood

That's great. Now please post what you don't agree with. :D
 
Aedez":2ig5b58a said:
Thanks for the review nbarts.
Oh man,i cant wait for my vh4 to land.
Have you play the uberschall and vh4 together live or in studio?
How they sound together?
And also nbarts,why not emg 81 with vh4?

I haven't played VH4 & Uberschall together, but I'm pretty sure you won't be disappointed with the combo.
Why not EMG81s? Simply because it sounds a lot better with passives, even JB sounds better than EMG81 to my ear.
 
Really insightful and valuable review...thanks for talking the time, greatly appreciated.

:thumbsup:
 
Nbarts this is my difference in opinion: you just preferred the xtc for your clean tone choice, and while i agree the xtc has MONSTER cleans (one of my best friends owns an xtc and i have spent considerable time with it) i prefer the herbert for cleans and slight overdrives (SRV kinda sounds) and here is why. This is a super close call but the difference could very well be my hands, guitar, ear who knows. the cleans on herbert just seem huge. I get a more familiar clean tone especially for my style of lead playing, and iuse my clean channel for leads ALOT. i play alot of country and western swing so i prefer the feel of herbie clean for that kind of stuff. Like i said it just sounds/feels more familiar to me (early fender blackface tones, at certain times in the studio i prefer herberts clean to my original 1964 deluxe reverb set clean :shocked: ) And while the clean sounds pushed hard on xtc KICK ASS, i get a similar sound on herbie ch 2 with gain at like 8-9 oclock in minus mode. so that area is somewhat covered. like i said the differnce probably has to do with my andersons and my love for tele's it could just be a ear preference to. but dont mistake me i WILL own a bogner xtc in the near future! I dont think there is another amp on the market that does what the bogner blue channel does, what an incredible sound and the sole reason i want that amp! and as i stated earlier i just couldnt find a lead channel that competes with my herbies ch 3, and that is the reason i pulled the trigger on herbie over everything else. it is yummy to my ears :D
peace
A Wood
 
If I said anywhere in my post that I preferred XTC cleans, please say where & I'll go ahead and edit it.

van hellion":cpwp0ya7 said:
Nbarts this is my difference in opinion: you just preferred the xtc for your clean tone choice, and while i agree the xtc has MONSTER cleans (one of my best friends owns an xtc and i have spent considerable time with it) i prefer the herbert for cleans and slight overdrives (SRV kinda sounds) and here is why. This is a super close call but the difference could very well be my hands, guitar, ear who knows. the cleans on herbert just seem huge. I get a more familiar clean tone especially for my style of lead playing, and iuse my clean channel for leads ALOT. i play alot of country and western swing so i prefer the feel of herbie clean for that kind of stuff. Like i said it just sounds/feels more familiar to me (early fender blackface tones, at certain times in the studio i prefer herberts clean to my original 1964 deluxe reverb set clean :shocked: ) And while the clean sounds pushed hard on xtc KICK ASS, i get a similar sound on herbie ch 2 with gain at like 8-9 oclock in minus mode. so that area is somewhat covered. like i said the differnce probably has to do with my andersons and my love for tele's it could just be a ear preference to. but dont mistake me i WILL own a bogner xtc in the near future! I dont think there is another amp on the market that does what the bogner blue channel does, what an incredible sound and the sole reason i want that amp! and as i stated earlier i just couldnt find a lead channel that competes with my herbies ch 3, and that is the reason i pulled the trigger on herbie over everything else. it is yummy to my ears :D
peace
A Wood
 
sorry brotha i misread the post (which i often do), the way you had it seperated must have played tricks on my eyes or something, i apologize for the misinterpretation, your reviews are spot on though

peace
A Wood
 
Thanks for all your insights and descriptions. I could never understand how SO many people said the Uberschall's channel one had an great clean sound :confused: That amp is just not for me because it is as you put it, not versatile.

I like the Herbert more than the VH4. Need my violin type sustain and I didn't find the VH4 to have that.

I like the Ectasy 101B. Make mine the Herbert and the XTC :rock:

Now do a comparison with an ENGL Special Edition (which I own) so I could see which of those 2 I'd REALLY like more :thumbsup:
 
And while the clean sounds pushed hard on xtc KICK ASS, i get a similar sound on herbie ch 2 with gain at like 8-9 oclock in minus mode. so that area is somewhat covered. like i said the differnce probably has to do with my andersons and my love for tele's it could just be a ear preference to.

Tele does make a difference for sure & I've previously posted many times that I prefer Herbert Ch1 over any other clean sound I've heard, however that's just my preference. XTC Ch1 is just as good as Herbert Ch1, but it has more variety of sounds available at your fingers. XTC with excursion set to T, volume all the way up & low gain settings sounds very much like fender tweed. Herbert is more low end heavy with fast attack, XTC is more top end heavy & has a top end sheen that Herbert doesn't have. It's really a matter of taste.

I could never understand how SO many people said the Uberschall's channel one had an great clean sound :confused:

Probably because those who say that compare it to rectifier cleans or something similar.
 
Awesome comparison man! Thx for that!
I own a VH-4 and I totally agree with your review, except for the struggle with vocals and channel 3 on the VH-4. Used my VH4 on alot of recordings and friends has used it aswell on their albums, and we´ve all used primarily channel 3 without any stuggle at all. I think it´s in how you process both the guitartracks and specially the vocaltracks.
Aside from that, killer comparison.

ROCK ON! :rock:
 
A few things I wanted to add:

1. The way speaker outputs/jacks are on Diezels is great; very easy & fast to switch cabinets. With Bogners if I need to change the impedance I have to go back there & turn the impedance switch with a screwdriver, big mistake! Annoying & time consuming, plus I actually need a screwdriver!
2. Parallel loops on Diezels leave the tone almost untouched. When I add a delay it’s like I add a delay. Now when you add a delay to the 101B you notice a major change in the way the amp sounds, definitely needs improvement. I really like the thru jack & the ability to control the level of the parallel loop in front of the VH4. Now with Herbert you will have to go dig in the back to control the level of your FX, like with a lot of other brands of amps, really not fun! Of course having another master volume makes up for it.
3. I like that Bogner includes footswitches for their amps, but midi compatibility of Diezel amps is something worth appreciation on stage.
4. The 2nd & the 3rd channel of the 101B share the same bass, mid, treble controls. Makes no sense to me, especially if you were to play the amp on a stage..
5. The weight – a major inconvenience of all the 4 amps. I feel bad for the guys who have to regularly drag these things around.
6. Inability to remove the front faceplate. To change a preamp tube you will have to actually remove the amp from the shell.
 
^I don't agree with number 6. I've never had a problem changing preamp tubes on my Bogners or Diezels without remove the amp from the shell.
 
mhenson42":35xfvelm said:
^I don't agree with number 6. I've never had a problem changing preamp tubes on my Bogners or Diezels without remove the amp from the shell.

Please, enlighten me. How do you change preamp tubes other than V1 or V2 without getting burned?
 
Herbert/EVM12L & 2 V30s with Gibson 490/498

I’ve been talking about EVM12L & Herbert for a while now. I found 2 x v30s & a EVM12L Classic in 2 OS Bogner 2x12s to match the Herbert so phenomenally good that this amp has come to new heights I’ve never experienced with it before. Gibson 490R & 498T pickups have become distinct favorites with this combination. I don’t know if it ever gets any better than this, I for one never heard a better tone. I encourage trying this combination if you own a Herbert. Let me add that since my original post I’ve retubed the amp with Penta Labs 12AX7s, which are supposedly high grade version of 9th gen Shuguang 12AX7s in preamp section & 4 SED EL34s & 2 Mullard EL34s (big props to Peter for designing this thing to have separate bias adjustment for each pair). Since I’d switched to this new speaker combination I’d been turning on the midcut most of the time with intensity 11:00-12:00-ish & my presence & deep went to 12:00.
First of all let’s get the master up to at least 10:00.

Channel 1

At about 8-9:00 you get some woody cleans, very big lows, real LP big cleans, nice jazz sound, great rock, metal ballad sound, all around super big cleans that will clearly stay out of the way of vocals & drums. NICE! Go around 12:00 & you get a lot of bite & iron. Experiment with highs & mids in both gain stages & you’ll get a lot of cool clean sounds.

Channel 2 –

There is some serious variety of tones here. Gain below 9:00 for some great clean tones, go above for some slight breakup, get a light crunch at noon. Now turn the gain to 2-3:00-ish & discover one of the greatest tones that can be had on this channel, beautiful Marshall 800 like crunch with good deal of highs, just all around great crunchy sound to fit many stiles. Stunning sound, seriously! Do ballads, rock, metal, whatever. Ever heard that Bogner 101B Blue channel gritty great tones? You can have that too, in Diezel disguise of course.

Channel 2 +

A great rhythm channel, it does the same thing as it used to, only sounds better.

Channel 3

All I can say here is WOW!! Man, I’ve heard many lead tones in my life, but this is just unbelievable. I put time factor in the loop & solo for hours and I hate soloing. This new setup puts Herbert channel 3 far ahead of any other lead channel I’ve heard, liquid lead tones with 498T just sound mind blowing, endless sustain, crunch, violin … every good quality I can think of for a great lead channel is here. Plays easy, sounds the way you have to hear yourself to believe it. The change also took the metal sound on this channel to another level.

In other words get an EVM12L classic in combination with v30s in a great cab like Bogner & try it with your Herbert yourself; a great delay like timefactor adds some more greatness & space to it too.
 
nbarts":27esc3zd said:
mhenson42":27esc3zd said:
^I don't agree with number 6. I've never had a problem changing preamp tubes on my Bogners or Diezels without remove the amp from the shell.

Please, enlighten me. How do you change preamp tubes other than V1 or V2 without getting burned?


:confused:

Don't change the tubes while they're still hot
 
Back
Top