Hotplate vs. Lower Volume

[cameron711]

Okay, so let me detail my dilemma....I have two amps: A VH-4 and a Road King Series 2 (and soon a diezel herbert too!) My dilemma is this; when i play alone, i can crank it and it sounds phenomenal, of course. However, when i jam with my drummer and bassist, i completely drown them out. My question is: am i better off just keeping each channels volume where it is and turn the master volume down OR should I get a thd hotplate?

would love to hear people's thoughts! I've heard good and bad things, ie tone suckers. but would love to hear what people are doing out there!

thanks,
cam

 

[Ventura]

Okay, so let me detail my dilemma....I have two amps: A VH-4 and a Road King Series 2 (and soon a diezel herbert too!) My dilemma is this; when i play alone, i can crank it and it sounds phenomenal, of course. However, when i jam with my drummer and bassist, i completely drown them out. My question is: am i better off just keeping each channels volume where it is and turn the master volume down OR should I get a thd hotplate?

would love to hear people's thoughts! I've heard good and bad things, ie tone suckers. but would love to hear what people are doing out there!

thanks,
cam

Hotplates aren't recommended for the Diezel line up. So MV down, channel volumes up.

2 cents,
V.

 

[elfredoo]

in the discussion, if using a hot plate (or others) will bring out the sound when you play loud in a quiter version, you always forget the speaker as a main sound influence. i guess (but that could be mistaken) that it will be hard to get a herbert into poweramp saturation while preserving your ears and hearing ability in a rehearsal room. i think that you mainly change the behavior of the speaker when giving it more level which results in a greater movement of the speaker's membrane.

i mean, come on, you level up your amp, and the sound thickens up, you get the room's reflections, you actually feel the sound and your ears cry "we will crush if you turn up more....but... give me more!"

so you have: guitar, gain of preamp, sound structure preamp (eq), poweramp saturation, poweramp sound struture (eq), speaker sound structure (eq) and behavior, speaker saturation, room volume saturation, room sound structure (eq + reverb)... to name a few influences on your sound. even how you feel at that day and how tired your fingers are influences your sound.

so this is what i constantly try to explain to other band members who are whining that the guitar is too loud on stage... a speaker has to work to sound great. it's like hitting a drum hard instead of barely touching it. either buy an isolation cab and mic it up, or build up a board with foam in front of the speakers to suck up level, but not sound. i guess that's the only way. you can use the power soaker to have it warm in winter times though

 

[Sinister 7]

FX out into a rack piece that has a global volume control, lower this and you should be able to keep your channel and master volume settings the way you want.

 

[elfredoo]

now that... i don't understand.

 

[Kev]

I have tried out the thd hotplate and it colored and thinned out my sound. (it sucked big time!!)
The big Diezels VH4, Herbert and Einstein get their tone from the preamp. The Diezel-poweramp is designed to give full power and best quality of tone at any volume. (i think it even says in the manual)
Turning up the Volume just makes it louder. It barely increases the quality of tone!!
It is our brain that makes the louder sound to the more powerful and "better" sounding.
So turn down the volume and/or the presence. Your VH4 (and hopefully soon your Herbert) will still have the same awesome, asskicking tone!

 

[Sinister 7]

Something like a Boss VF-1 is pretty cheap, you run the FX out into this effects rack. Then the Boss will allow you to lower the preamp volume down to 2% if you wanted, it sends this lowered volume signal back into the FX return on the VH4 and you have a lower sound, yet the Channel and Master volumes are set high for better tube saturation.

Just an option I'm throwing out there that I've done for years.

 

[elfredoo]

i think that is a placebo effect ... a tube gets saturated by signal strength, not just by level poti positions. that's why your guitar becomes clean in a distortion channel when you level her down at the guitar potentiometer while leaving the amp gains and levels.

 

[FourT6and2]

Something like a Boss VF-1 is pretty cheap, you run the FX out into this effects rack. Then the Boss will allow you to lower the preamp volume down to 2% if you wanted, it sends this lowered volume signal back into the FX return on the VH4 and you have a lower sound, yet the Channel and Master volumes are set high for better tube saturation.

Just an option I'm throwing out there that I've done for years.

Yeah, it doesn't work that way.

As elfredoo said, tubes clip when they receive a hot enough signal. If the master is turned up, but it's getting a low signal (such as the return signal from a VF-1 in the loop, it's the same thing as just turning the master down in the first place. Or just turning the channel volume down.

 

[Sinister 7]

I'm not a technician, but the lowered guitar volume scenario isn't the same as that directly affects the signal going into the Preamp which will clearly kill the tone. My scenario takes a 100% great tone from the Preamp and lowers that volume into the Power amp, which the effect doesn't come out sounding like a clean/weak signal like a guitar volume knob on 1. Again, not a technician but I get what you're saying about the power side and signal strength but considering the OP's question, I believe my scenario is a good compromise, if any.

I haven't noticed a difference in how the head sounds at 10% or 100% Preamp signal, but rather how the speaker responds to the volume difference.

 

[stephen sawall]

The THD Hot Plate is good if you want more poweramp saturation. As stated above how the speakers react to different volume or dB's is part of the sound of turning up. Speakers break up and have different sounds at different dB's.

As to whether or how the sound may change, of course it will change - with any attenuator. Presumably that's why you are using it.
You want the amp to saturate more at a lower volume level. That's a sonic change - whether that's for better or worse depends on whether or not the change that does occur is what you were hoping for.

Peter does not recommend attenuators being used with his amps. A friend of mine has used one for years with his Einstein and very much likes it.

I very much like the Hot Plate with my Tremoverb ..... a other Dual Rectifier. It seems to work well with that family.

I have used one often for a very long time. Some amps I very much like it with .... others I do not feel it helps the sound.
I also fine tune the amp settings for different settings on the Hot Plate .... this is just part of getting the best results.

 

[petereanima]

The THD Hot Plate is good if you want more poweramp saturation.

The thing is - i dont think anyone would want "poweramp saturation" from a Diezel (or any other modern amp/ high gain amp). The term "Poweramp Saturation" has been used wrong too often in the past years i think.

Everything else has been mentioned - that we hear a louder sound as a better sound has not so much to do with the Poweramp, but more with how hard the speaker is pushed (and in that combination the efficiency of the speaker etc.etc.), and that we hear the LOUDER sound as the more POWERFULL sound has also a lot with it to do.

so if you use a hotplate - the speakers still will be pushed not hard enough, and will sound worse that just turning down the master volume.

 

[stephen sawall]

The thing is - i dont think anyone would want "poweramp saturation" from a Diezel (or any other modern amp/ high gain amp).

You may not .... but many do. We are only talking about personal taste.

Like I said a friend of mine has been using one for many years with his Diezel and very much prefers that sound over turning down the master to get the same dB's.

I very much like it with some of my modern amps/ high gain amps for controlling the volume. With others I like the sound of the master volume turned down better. For me it very much depends on the amp and how much I want to lower the volume.

You are right ..... a attenuator well not magically recreate the sound of speaker breakup or the sound of speakers pushed.

I am not using the term "Poweramp Saturation" incorrectly and know what it means.

Everything else has been mentioned - that we hear a louder sound as a better sound has not so much to do with the Poweramp, but more with how hard the speaker is pushed (and in that combination the efficiency of the speaker etc.etc.), and that we hear the LOUDER sound as the more POWERFULL sound has also a lot with it to do.

so if you use a hotplate - the speakers still will be pushed not hard enough, and will sound worse that just turning down the master volume.

This may be your opinion .... but for many of us that have many years experience with these things do not see it that way. I do not disagree with you .... but feel it is not always the case.

 

[Heritage Softail]

Interesting....

Pulling two power tubes and lowering the loop level helped with the ability to get the speakers adequately powered and the amp working a bit without the 100W head being very very loud.

Someone may think this sounds crazy..... but using ear plugs, and it up loud enough to feel the music, it is similar in ear level volume but the listening/playing experience has the body impact of the loud guitar. That is a part of any volume lowering thing that is just not there. The amp working hard, speakers driven hard, feel of the sound waves on the body, it is all part of it. At least for me. If you have been gigging for 20 years, it is probably not that big of a deal. Any sort of lowering the volume leaves the experience to be a little less than. And that is OK once in a while.... but I still crank it fairly loud at 4:30 am when I jam a little before going off to work (no close neighbors thankfully).

Speaker motor attenuators or resistor type?? Was Weber the speaker motor type? A little foggy on that one.