Lets take resonant peak of pickups and other equally important variables

[scottosan]

These are among the 3 most important specs that influence to tone and feel of a pickup

Inductive Specs:
1. Resonant Peak (determined by capacitance and inductance)
2. Q Factor (determined by resonant peak, inductance, and resistance)

Transductive Specd:
3. Magnetic field shape and strength. (determined my magnet size, strength, and pole pieces )

A guitar pickup is an inductor and a transducer. You cannot exclusively talk about the inductive characteristics without taking into consideration the transductive properties of the pickup. I'll take that a step further and say that talking about the resonant peak without talking about Q Factor, is omitting a key characteristic of the pickup.

Resonant Peak

I think this is extremely important for prototyping assuming all prototypes are using the same magnet, wire and pole pieces, etc. That said, it only measured one of the inductive properties of the pickup and none of the transductive properties, which are influenced by magnet strength and coil geometry to some extent affecting output, brightness, etc.

But, back to the inductive properties, I feel q-factor is one of the most overlooked and under documented measurements that impacts both the tone and the feel of the pickup. A pickup with a lower resonant peak but higher q factor can easily be perceived as brighter than the pickup with a higher resonant peak and lower q factor because there's a less aggressive slope of the peak at the given frequency. Q-factor is basically the order of magnitude of the resonant peak. Think of the resonant peak like a tone knob centered at the frequency of the resonant peak, and the q-factor is where that knob is set. If you have a tone knob centered at 5.5khz with the knob set at 2:00 basically boosting the signal +4db at that frequency vs a knob at 5khz at 4:00 boosting that frequency at 8db, that signal will likely sound brighter at +8db/5khz than the +4db/5.5khz. And as the q-factor lessens, the pickup sounds more dynamic and balanced, whereas a high q factor will sound mor focused in the peak frequencies

I have been documenting this with various vendors pickups and hope to eventually post the comparisons in some sort of graphical format to help people compare both the resonant peak AND Q factors of well known pickups as well as my own. I'll probably chart it, by output, wire type, and magnet type, as to make the graphs more apples to apples and minimize the transductive impacts to the tone.

More to come.

 

[Ben Waylin]

Would like to see this data for an Ibanez Super70

 

[Smash]

This is interesting as fuck. Would loke to see Seymour duncan 59/custom hybrid vs a few of yours. I know the wicked 8 would be interesting also

 

[JohnnyGtar]

Fascinating. Thanks! I'd love to see the data for an old Ibanez Super 80.

 

[scottosan]

Would like to see this data for an Ibanez Super70

Certainly possible, but from a charting standpoint, you'd ideally want to chart it against another 42awg with an ALNICO 8 magnet. You could make some assumptions based on typical inductance differences for the different ALNICO types, but at that point it's too complex to chart in a format for easy consumption

 

[scottosan]

This is interesting as fuck. Would loke to see Seymour duncan 59/custom hybrid vs a few of yours. I know the wicked 8 would be interesting also

This would be easy to chart, but there just isn't many pickups to compare to with a 42awg and 43awg coil

 

[BesaMoogie]

Your explanation is nice and easy to understand, thanks! Heard about this terms before but it never really made sense to me, up until now!

 

[ners]

Take this deep dive into construction of a pickup, would love to know factors during a build that influence Q/etc

 

[JTyson]

Great stuff
I knew there was more to it than output and magnet type, but nobody ever goes this deep, the Q factor explanation was very interesting

 

[japetus]

Sir, this is a Wendys

 

[shawn w]

Very cool stuff. I love the geeky guitar things. This guy is doing something similar. I found him on Instagram. He posts some interesting things.

https://guitarpickupdatabase.com/

Shawn

 

[scottosan]

Take this deep dive into construction of a pickup, would love to know factors during a build that influence Q/etc

I'd say that in regards to a standard 1 slug and 1 screw row pickup design using a nickel silver baseplates, outside of the magnet, the parts choices are less critical than how you put wire on the bobbins. Most winders use 1213/1215 alloy slugs and there's typically a choice of 1010,1018,1022 alloy screws. Each of these choices are subtle in comparison to the wind. 1022 being a little brighter than 1010. As a winder, theres better ways to tweak a prototype than by changing alloys. Most just have a preference and stick with it.

The big winders use tension machines to fine tune to the 1 gram level of wire tension going into the bobbin and use CNC machines to control how layers go on the bobbin before a complete traverse from one end of the bobbin to the other is completed. Without giving away too much, one of those is more effective at controlling capacitance than the other with the other is better at controlling the inductance and voltage potential. So, one of these 2 is better for controlling q factor and the other is better for resonant peak. But still changing one will affect the other, so there's some trial an error.

 

[romanianreaper]

When you were describing this, I was picturing the EQ when I record a song and how I use the graph to cut frequencies that are "quacky" or lifting some for brightness. I can see how with a pickup, things can be bland or harsh without accounting for that stuff.

 

[rsm]

I'm interested in the truth about Lace Alumitone pickups.

I have cheap guitars with no name pickups to high end guitars with known pickups. As long as they have clarity and respond well to volume and tone control adjustments (assuming the guitar pots are working properly), what the pickups are doesn't matter to me.

To adapt to the differences between the various pickups in my guitars, my amps and effects have the ability to adjust various parameters to get the sounds I want. No need to replace pickups.

Many years ago, I got an inexpensive guitar with their brandname pickups, I thought I would need to replace the pickups so I got a set of Lace Alumitones; the stock pickups and controls worked fine, so I just tweaked the amp and pedals, never swapped the pickups. But I have a set of Lace Alumitones that need a home, hence my first statement in this post.

Finally, I got a knockoff guitar from AliExpress, it was a $300 version of a limited edition Japanese guitar that goes for around $6K on the used market when you find one. The no-name pickups aren't great or bad, but they work great. They have clarity, and the guitar pots do what's expected once I adjusted my gear for the guitar. No need to replace anything on the guitar.

 

[Smash]

I'm interested in the truth about Lace Alumitone pickups.

I have cheap guitars with no name pickups to high end guitars with known pickups. As long as they have clarity and respond well to volume and tone control adjustments (assuming the guitar pots are working properly), what the pickups are doesn't matter to me.

To adapt to the differences between the various pickups in my guitars, my amps and effects have the ability to adjust various parameters to get the sounds I want. No need to replace pickups.

Many years ago, I got an inexpensive guitar with their brandname pickups, I thought I would need to replace the pickups so I got a set of Lace Alumitones; the stock pickups and controls worked fine, so I just tweaked the amp and pedals, never swapped the pickups. But I have a set of Lace Alumitones that need a home, hence my first statement in this post.

Finally, I got a knockoff guitar from AliExpress, it was a $300 version of a limited edition Japanese guitar that goes for around $6K on the used market when you find one. The no-name pickups aren't great or bad, but they work great. They have clarity, and the guitar pots do what's expected once I adjusted my gear for the guitar. No need to replace anything on the guitar.

I think the difference between great and excellent pickups is small especially in comparison to the cheap pickups a lot of the non name brands put in their guitars. If you ever.played a stock pup out of a say Cort guitar (muddy as hell) vs say a jackson entry level guitar, that difference is quite large. The jackson pups are really quite good for a 200 dollar guitar. But even those, you get one of scottosan's and dont get blown away, i think its time to clean the ears.

 

[rsm]

I think the difference between great and excellent pickups is small especially in comparison to the cheap pickups a lot of the non name brands put in their guitars. If you ever.played a stock pup out of a say Cort guitar (muddy as hell) vs say a jackson entry level guitar, that difference is quite large. The jackson pups are really quite good for a 200 dollar guitar. But even those, you get one of scottosan's and dont get blown away, i think its time to clean the ears.

Like I said, I have cheap guitars with stock pickups and guitars with better pickups, e.g., EMG, DiMarzio, Seymour Duncan which are all good IMO.

However, I don't have any cheap guitars with stock pickups that were so bad that I thought I had to replace the pickups. Adjusting the settings on my amp or signal chain has been sufficient to get the sounds I want.

If I got a guitar with stock pickups that sounded muddy I'd return it or sell it.

 

[BesaMoogie]

The big winders use tension machines to fine tune to the 1 gram level of wire tension going into the bobbin and use CNC machines to control how layers go on the bobbin before a complete traverse from one end of the bobbin to the other is completed. Without giving away too much, one of those is more effective at controlling capacitance than the other with the other is better at controlling the inductance and voltage potential. So, one of these 2 is better for controlling q factor and the other is better for resonant peak. But still changing one will affect the other, so there's some trial an error.

Our of curiosity, are you controlling those parameters by hand when winding???

 

[scottosan]

Our of curiosity, are you controlling those parameters by hand when winding???

Absolutely. I use a metronome for the traverse while the whole tension thing may have been questionable in my earlier products, I have made significant improvements in my technique. Im working on more precision on the tension as we speak so I anticipate more consistency and versatility moving forward. My WD Forte had been in prototype mode for 8 months because I couldn't get the capacitance nearly as as close as the Duncan RTM with my old methods and gave up. Ive now got that part much more refined. I will likely revisit my original Sunset and Roxy designs and release version 2's using techniques that I developed in later models. Capacitance is extremely hard to measure on that low range an on and inductor. Once I was able to get accurate measurement I was able to objectively determine each technique affected each parameter instead of measuring basic parameters and using my ears

 

[Smash]

Like I said, I have cheap guitars with stock pickups and guitars with better pickups, e.g., EMG, DiMarzio, Seymour Duncan which are all good IMO.

However, I don't have any cheap guitars with stock pickups that were so bad that I thought I had to replace the pickups. Adjusting the settings on my amp or signal chain has been sufficient to get the sounds I want.

If I got a guitar with stock pickups that sounded muddy I'd return it or sell it.

Well. I never bought one new with bad pickups. And maybe i could have dialed out thst trash. Was years ago that i got muddy pickups. Was gross. Sounded like tone on zero

 

[Smash]

Absolutely. I use a metronome for the traverse while the whole tension thing may have been questionable in my earlier products, I have made significant improvements in my technique. Im working on more precision on the tension as we speak so I anticipate more consistency and versatility moving forward. My WD Forte had been in prototype mode for 8 months because I couldn't get the capacitance nearly as as close as the Duncan RTM with my old methods and gave up. Ive now got that part much more refined. I will likely revisit my original Sunset and Roxy designs and release version 2's using techniques that I developed in later models. Capacitance is extremely hard to measure on that low range an on and inductor. Once I was able to get accurate measurement I was able to objectively determine each technique affected each parameter instead of measuring basic parameters and using my ears

I dont know what the fuck you just said; but you touched a brother's heart