M4 newbie with many questions (levels, switching, effects)

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destratification

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Well here I am finally a legitimate eggie with the purchase of used M4 preamp (Twin/COD/VX/SL2). This forum has been invaluable in researching everything from components to modules and setup. I just got a chance to give it an initial run through last night while the baby and wife were away for a couple of hours and I just couldn't get the tones dialed - something seems to be off. This may very well be attributed to operator error! I've come up with many questions... I tried two setups:
1. Guitar (for this run through eric johnson strat and les paul standard with '59s) > M4 > Nova system setup in series (line mode, input gain set to unity) > stereo out to Randall RT2/50 (stereo mode) > (L) Avatar 2 x 12 (v30s) (R) Avatar 2x12 (Eminence Legends). I wasn't getting a full tone out of this, sounded like tone suck. Nova was showing clipping, played with input gain, levels - couldn't figure it out. I need to make sure I have good cables (short) and work on settings more with the effects unit. I ditched that and went with a pure setup to eliminate potential problems.
2. Guitar > M4 > RT2/50 (switching mode) > Avatar

This sounded much better, richer (louder) tone. First question:
1. How do you set the levels between all the components? I know I will have to refine all the individual module channels to get a good relative balance between them all then use the master on the M4. But would you say it's better to turn your power amp up (for more headroom?) and then the M4's master for overall level? Or turn the M4 master to 3o'clock or more and then power amp for overall level? Something seems a bit off with the overall tone - but especially with the Twin module (it sounds attenuated maybe even a bit of fizz - notes don't ring through). Another variable I'm thinking is that I bought the RT2/50 used and I'm second guessing whether I installed the tubes correctly after shipping?? Right now I'm playing at bedroom/home levels - power amp set at about 9 oclock and m4 master about 11-12.
2. Can I safely run the egnater Twin module in my Randall RM50 to test it out (i know only one channel would be available)?
3. Is there a way to connect the M4 to my RM50 bypassing the RM50 preamps and utilizing the power amp section to isolate any issue with the RT2/50 (connect into serial return loop?)?
4. I didn't get a footswitch with the M4. Is there an 8 channel footswitch or does the 4 button switch work with the dual channel M4 (each button a bank up/down)?
5. Does anybody use the Nova G system with the M4 and can you select all eight channels via the footcontroller? I might be looking at the alternative of a Lexicon effects unit, GCX switcher and MIDI footcontroller. I like to play with some reverb on and would like to have modulation effects in the serial loop and stompboxes in front of the preamp and would like to select a preset: module channel > with effect and be able to punch effects in and out - that's why I'm thinking G system. Right now I just want to set up and play though and stop spending money.
6. Are there any eganater M4 users in the Bay Area (I'm in Marin). I would love to set up my rack next to theirs and A/B?

Thanks for any info, I've obviously got to spend some more time tweaking knobs!
 
I'm guessing your tone problems with the first setup is because of the clipping. You're most likely overloading the input of the Nova, which one were you using? If you're connecting the M4 to the Nova you should be using the line input, the drive input simply isn't designed to take a signal that strong. If it's still acting up, turn down the master on the M4.
As for which level to use, I'd say either one's good. The differences will be minimal.
2. You should be able to use the Twin module in your RM50 without damaging either of them.
3. The serial return is the way to go for this, yes.

I hope I wasn't too basic in my answers. Good luck!
 
make sure you have the nova set for +4db if it has the option.
 
The M4 is a fairly hot signal.

I rarely run the master past 1 o clock. Any more will red-light my 2290 like crazy.

Try the M4 into the FX return of another amp to see if the problem isn't your power amp.

Try a friend's cab too. Your speakers might just sound bad.

Also, try swapping some tubes in your M4, don't forget the 2 12AX7's in the chassis.

I know they include Sovtek WA's because they are reliable, but damn....They sound so bad for the most part compared to many other pre tubes.

I don't know what else to tell you. I find ANY high end preamp reacts BIGTIME to the power amp and power tube choice.
 
Thanks for the suggestions all...
Wow! I definitely isolated the problem to some kind of issue with my RT2/50 power amp. I plugged the M4 into the effects return of my Randall RM50 and heard what I was hoping for out of the egnater. Words that come to mind are butter, fluidity, character, dynamics... I like each of these modules in their own right and can't wait to try some other guitars and play with the eq settings - treble and bass boosts etc. The VX module is an awesome alternative clean sound (and great B channel overdrive/breakup). I think I'll want to explore the T/D or Deluxe module as an alternative to the Twin module (but got some great tones out of that one too...)

Now I have to get down to figuring out what's going on with the RT2/50 because I'm really curious to hear this in stereo with some panned effects as well...

Still curious if anyone has info on a whether Egnater offers a footswitch that's compatible with the M4 (switches all channels)? Also, whether the TC Electronics G system is a good companion to the M4 and is able to switch all channels?
 
As far as I know, there is no 8 button footswitch that will change all channels on the m4. You'd have to use a midi controller for that.
 
Also, whether the TC Electronics G system is a good companion to the M4 and is able to switch all channels?
Click to expand...

I'm loving my G-System with the MOD50 and it is a midi controler so you would be able to switch all channels. Not to metion that you can configure all the switches to either change patches/toggle effects or both.
 
Hey man, welcome to Eggie-Ville. We are one happy bunch, cause we sound goooood!

Yep, Randall RM50, best power amp I ever had for my M4. Your RT 2/50 sounds like it needs to be biased correctly. Very simple, just follow the instructions in the manual. You have a Randall amp so I assume you are familiar with the process. Lots of tubes in that rig ... let's seeeeeee ... four power amp tubes and what ... fourteen 12AX7?

These deals are always a process of elimination.
 
I'm going to say that I *vastly* prefer the tone from the RM50, whether native modules or M4 via series return compared to either the RM100LB I currently own or the RT2/50 and other RM100s I've owned.

Words that describe the RM50 tone...warm, organic....words that applied to the RT2/50 .... cold and sterile..maybe it's just a volume thing. :(

Tubes I had and tried at the time...JJ 6L6/E34L/KT77/6v6.. Ruby 6L6, EL34... Sovtek and Tungsol 5881s

I'm pretty sure all the tubes we're good in the RT2/50 too....and I biased correctly according to randall guide.

Nicest sounding tube I've found for the RM100LB so far....GTEL34M (6ca7) reissue.

For my sins and inability to control myself, I have yet another RT2/50 on the way to mess with....am hoping to work out what I did wrong the first time round...maybe bias hotter? if not, it'll be on eBay.
 
I have to agree with the 2 last posts on the RM50 power amp sounding better than the RT2/50. I got the RT set up correctly today (pulled the tubes made sure I had them seated correctly, etc.) and I can't say what the previous issue was but it sounded dramatically better than the first run through. I also got my TC Nova system effects set up in series (with proper level settings) and ran it in stereo. It sounded really good - but not quite as good as running the M4 through the effects return of the RM50. Through the RM50 I got more tonal character out of the guitar and pickups and better dynamics overall.

I'll work on biasing the RT. It's got GT Ruby's for the power tubes and electro harmonics for the 12ax7s. Maybe I'll look into different tube selection if the biasing isn't fruitful.

Thanks for input - always good to get some validation that I'm not just 'hearing' things
 
If you want to hear a good match for any preamp, plug into the FX return of an Egnater seminar head.

It sounds badass with Sov 6550's, JJ 6V6's, JJ E34L's, etc.

anything really. It's such a nice power section. Warm and LOUD! :rock:
 
Hey destratification,

I hope you don't mind me asking. What's your main reason for wanting the rig to be stereo? Just curious, as in will this be a live rig or home set up?

I know I'll get bashed on a little, but what the heck, I have a bottle of Vicodan sitting next to me so here it goes. ( :D ) I hate stereo rigs, especially on stage. I find the dispersion of sound distracting, and unfocussed. I know I used to run my rig this way and there some cool things about it, but over all I always go with simple is better. Now wet/dry rig is another story depending on the effects unit. If the effects have a parralell dry signal then, no point IMO. If not it's almost a must to retain your dynamics and pick attack. But, if wet/dry is neccesary I usually go with two signals ... dry and wet - mono. Oh my it seems I have strayed of topic a bit.

Oh and seriously ... you have to bias that RT2/50. I think GT and Ruby make my least favorite sounding tubes on the planet.
 
i have 2 rt2/50's and i get amazing tone and i only have it on 9 oclock (into a mesa blackwidow 90w speaker open back cab) . i do find a big difference at low vol. i put my m4 on 11 oclock - 3 oclock and have tone of the gods but below 9 oclock it loses the "tone" but sounds ok. It has the stock tubes in it as far as i know (i got it on evil bay). I did find turning my mods up to 12 - 3 oclock made a huge difference in my tone and i would balance out the mod vol A and B on 1 channel of the RT then switch to the tubes in ch 1 or 2 I liked for that mod so when switching my vol was mostly the same balanced across the board.
 
The RT2/50 should not sound much different from the RT50 series loop return. They are very much the same amps in different boxes. Is the RT2/50 set to the switching mode but you are tying to use it stereo? That could be weird. Also be sure you are using the speaker jacks labeled "USE FIRST".
 
Well...here's what I just posted on mtsforum...have been struggling with RT2/50 tone:

OKAY...so I've had 3 RT2/50 units now and sold two - one due to not having enough money and one due to not being able to get the tones I wanted at low volumes...sure it's not important to many but it's #1 for me. I like the way tubes feel, sound and play but I can't practice at loud volumes.

The latest purchase rolled in on Friday (litterally via FedEx, but that's another story) and with a few tweaks I got it almost exactly the same as my RM50HB setup....and today I was able to setup the RM4 and it's delivering the goods almost 99% the same.

The only Eureka moments I got to offer are:

1. The Master volume is touchier than my RM50...a gnats whisker and it's too loud

2. I put my favorite tubes in - GT EL34M (6ca7) at 37 ma and JJ 6L6 at 32mA. The stock Ruby tubes have something to offer for sure but wasn;t digging the low end so I went with what I like.

3. I messed with how hot the signal going into the amp was...too much and it's too loud or too thin (can't get enough master on)....too little and it sounds ratty. All my pre-amp channel masters are set 12 o'clock +/- to balance them and I use the M4/RM4 pre-amp master to drive overall output (usually 12 to 3 o'clock.)

That's it.

If I had one more comment to offer, it feels like it has more low end than my RM50HB, maybe not quite so bright and sparkly on top (minor, minor diff) ...even with the same tubes...but if you saw what happened to the PCB on that amp, not sure it's a valid comparison any more :-/
 
JKD":3jwvs6qm said:
Well...here's what I just posted on mtsforum...have been struggling with RT2/50 tone:

OKAY...so I've had 3 RT2/50 units now and sold two - one due to not having enough money and one due to not being able to get the tones I wanted at low volumes...sure it's not important to many but it's #1 for me. I like the way tubes feel, sound and play but I can't practice at loud volumes.

The latest purchase rolled in on Friday (litterally via FedEx, but that's another story) and with a few tweaks I got it almost exactly the same as my RM50HB setup....and today I was able to setup the RM4 and it's delivering the goods almost 99% the same.

The only Eureka moments I got to offer are:

1. The Master volume is touchier than my RM50...a gnats whisker and it's too loud

2. I put my favorite tubes in - GT EL34M (6ca7) at 37 ma and JJ 6L6 at 32mA. The stock Ruby tubes have something to offer for sure but wasn;t digging the low end so I went with what I like.

3. I messed with how hot the signal going into the amp was...too much and it's too loud or too thin (can't get enough master on)....too little and it sounds ratty. All my pre-amp channel masters are set 12 o'clock +/- to balance them and I use the M4/RM4 pre-amp master to drive overall output (usually 12 to 3 o'clock.)

That's it.

If I had one more comment to offer, it feels like it has more low end than my RM50HB, maybe not quite so bright and sparkly on top (minor, minor diff) ...even with the same tubes...but if you saw what happened to the PCB on that amp, not sure it's a valid comparison any more :-/
Click to expand...
Do you run the RT in stereo?
 
jmgman69":3aelsyt4 said:
JKD":3aelsyt4 said:
Well...here's what I just posted on mtsforum...have been struggling with RT2/50 tone:
Click to expand...
Do you run the RT in stereo?
Click to expand...

Not yet...the option confuses me ..well, I have no need for stereo but can't figure 'mono' operation in Stereo mode out...do I need a cab for each channel?
 
I'm back from Turkey vacation and the responses here have been great. Since our house is on the market, I have to set up and tear down my equipment each go and have gotten different results with each 'experiment'. Nice to have Bruce himself chime in with a response! Great detailed set-up from JKD as well.

Part of my issue was, as a previous poster suggested, I was clipping the input of my TC Nova system when running that in series between the M4 and the RT. I'm having a hard time finessing that and just tried to set it up again yesterday with bad results (tried setting the unity gain correctly and also have the line level set to +8 -options are +2, +8, +14, +20). I did have this set up a week ago, running in stereo (yes JKD, just switch to stereo and run through 2 cabs) and it sounded great - comparable to running it through the RM50. Perhaps I need to work with turning down the M4 master volume to just the right level so it doesn't clip and then adjust the RT volume for desired volume.

Another factor in my preference for playing through the RM50 I think, is the fact that it has reverb. I like to play with a bit of reverb added to bring a bit of warmth, depth to the tone and I think this definitely affects my perception in tone between the RT2/50 and the RM50.

My next step is to make sure the tubes are biased in the RT2/50 as someone suggested. I tried using my grandfather's 40 year old analogue Lafayette - but that's not reading. Time for a new multimeter. I'd also like to experiment with some different power tube selections - it's currently got GT GT34LS and Ruby 6L6. Anybody want to start giving their preferences for EL34s and 6L6s? After reading some reviews on Dougs tubes and the Tubestore I'm thinking about Tungsol EL34Bs and not sure what a good alternative for the Ruby 6L6s might be. The RM50 I play through has KT77s which sound pretty good to me too - a lot of clarity and focused kind of sound. Aeroic has posted that he loves the 6550s - are those comparable to a 6L6 or something else entirely. I'm not going to focus too much energy on tubes but I do find it fascinating (since I can't build circuits) that I can alter the tone significantly by swapping some tubes.
 
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