Midi for a dummy

[SpiderWars]

I want to simplify my pedalboard that has grown into a tap-dancing nightmare. I recently got an amp that has Midi capability and I’ve been using a Nemesis delay for a while, so I want to incorporate Midi. I also want to reduce my 4 different modulation pedals to the Mobius and potentially also an H9.

Signal chains will be something like this:

Guitar – Mobius – H9 – Wah – Screamer – Klon – Amp Input

Parallel FX Send – Nemesis – Parallel FX Return

Series FX Send – EQ – Boost – Series FX Return

So the Mobius, H9, Nemesis, and amp will be Midi controlled. The only Midi-switchable thing on the amp is channel select (3-channels). With pretty much every other pedal, I want the option to use it at any time (like Wah, ODs, boost). The EQ will either be always-ON or a Midi switchable unit (so can be ignored).

There seem to be a ton of options at almost every price point. I’m looking for the simplest option that doesn’t paint me into a corner down the road. My first thought was a Boss ES-8, which isn’t cheap but obtainable for me. I fear that having so little experience here that I might buy something unsuitable for my needs. Any help appreciated.

 

[GOHOINC]

Cant speak highly enough about the ES-8. Especially if you run stereo. If you are only running one amp and that few pedals you might look at teh es-5 as well.

I use the es-8 to switch in 7 different pedals and control 2 XTC heads (voodoo lab control switchers to get midi control on the amps). I have banks with patches set up so I can get track sounds at the push of a button but with the ES-8 with the touch of the mode button I can get instant access to traditional loop switching as well. Fantastic controller/switcher. Easy to program as well.

 

[SpiderWars]

If you don't need to make ongoing adjustments to your pedals throughout the night, one approach would be to move your pedals to a rack and use something like the RJM Effect Gizmo.

I have a Randall 667 which has MIDI control of channel, boost, FX and Master1/2. I use a wah, BOSS GE-7, Eventide H9, and Seymour Duncan 805 in front of the amp, and a Peavey Autograph II (yes, really) and an Eventide H9 in the loop. I have just a single Eventide H9, but I use it in Pre/Post mode so that I can use it in front of the amp or in the loop.

I use the RJM Effect Gizmo for routing/switching pedals, whether in front of the amp or in the loop, along with a Rocktron MIDI Raider to control everything. There's certainly an element of complexity to a setup like this, but to me it's worth it. I can just press one button, and it changes the channel on my amp, enables or disables the loop, changes the program on my H9, and switches whatever pedals I want in or out of the chain. No tap dance, just a single button on the MIDI Raider for whatever I need.

Other than having that option of putting the pedals in a rack, what advantages would having a separate loop switcher and midi controller have? As far as I can tell, the Boss ES-5 or 8 can do the same things. I'm not opposed to separate pieces, just curious if I'm missing some obvious advantage of one over the other. I suppose another advantage is that I can upgrade one part and keep the other one the same.

 

[maddnotez]

Idk much about it but I've been building a pedal board over the last year. I did the math and by the time I upgrade the actual board and have everything I need I'm questioning why I sold my AX8 lol.

Throw in a $400 foot controller and man count me out. I use the FX subtly and some always on so there isn't much rap dancing but if I had to do that AND add a $400 switcher I'd probably just get an FX8 or another AX8.

Ever consider going that route?

 

[fusedbrain]

I just finished going through a re-build of my pedal board and ended up with an RJM Mastermind PBC.
It ended up being a choice between the Boss ES-8 and the RJM unit. Both have similar MIDI functionality, and will do what you are asking, but I chose the RJM unit for the following reasons:
-10 loops vs 8 - leaves room to add a pedal or 2

-2 insert points between the loops. One between 4 & 5 and one between 6 & 7. This is where you split between the feed to the front of the amp and inserting the FX loop send to run the remaining loops in the FX loop of the amp.

-2 outputs with an isolation transformer and polarity reverse on output 2. This is essential if you want to run a 2 amp set-up. The Boss unit has 2 outputs, but no iso transformer or polarity reverse. This is where some of the extra money goes for the RJM vs the ES-8.

- The RJM unit has a computer editor available to set up the unit, and the RJM is much more flexible in this regard. You can even set the colour of the LED's on the loops.

- Sound quality - while all the reports on the Boss unit are that it sounds fine, this is a quote from the RJM forum: The Boss switchers use an analog switching matrix - it's basically a chip that has a bunch of inputs and a bunch of outputs and allows you to select, from a microprocessor, which input is connected to which output. The audio path is not digital at all, but it's not passive like relays are.
The RJM unit is all relays. This is the reason why the BOSS unit has the ability to re-order the loops and the RJM does not. Another quote from RJM re loop re-ordering: I get a lot of people asking about this feature, more so than any other feature by far. But I'm glad I'm sticking to my position of "clean audio path is the #1 priority". Using a matrix chip has many benefits, but it does introduce some capacitance, resistance and harmonic distortion to the signal path, where relays don't add any appreciable amount of any of those things.

At the end of the day, I figured if I was in for the cost of the ES-8, I might as well spend the extra $$ and get the best quality unit I could find. The RJM PBC can also work with their FX Gizmo so you have room for further expansion if you need it.

Funny thing about all this, is that if I didn't already have a huge pile of great sounding pedals, I probably would have just looked at an Axe FX. At this point I'm pretty much committed to using the individual pedals, so the RJM PBC seemed like the best solution.
Hope that helps.

 

[fusedbrain]

Also forgot to mention that the RJM PBC has a built in tuner, so that allowed me to ditch the tuner off my board, which was another big plus.

 

[mudf00t]

I am using a VL Ground Control and GCX. I have my pedals in a rack drawer right below the GCX. I am not running that many pedals, though. 4 H9s, an El Capistan, Spark Booster and BE OD. I may add this Mobius too but I haven't decided as yet.

 

[GOHOINC]

-2 outputs with an isolation transformer and polarity reverse on output 2. This is essential if you want to run a 2 amp set-up. The Boss unit has 2 outputs, but no iso transformer or polarity reverse. This is where some of the extra money goes for the RJM vs the ES-8.

Strangely enough. Running 2 heads put of my es-8 it is dead quiet. I was worried about isolation and ground lift capabilities as I've lost too much time fighting noise in the past but have had no issues with the es-8 and noise. Phase switching would be nice to run channels 2w boost and 3 at the same time though... that being said running channel 1 w boost and channel 2 of the st heads has no phase issues.

 

[fusedbrain]

-2 outputs with an isolation transformer and polarity reverse on output 2. This is essential if you want to run a 2 amp set-up. The Boss unit has 2 outputs, but no iso transformer or polarity reverse. This is where some of the extra money goes for the RJM vs the ES-8.

Strangely enough. Running 2 heads put of my es-8 it is dead quiet. I was worried about isolation and ground lift capabilities as I've lost too much time fighting noise in the past but have had no issues with the es-8 and noise. Phase switching would be nice to run channels 2w boost and 3 at the same time though... that being said running channel 1 w boost and channel 2 of the st heads has no phase issues.

That's cool, I'm glad it works for your set-up. Your amps must both have an even or odd number of gain stages. That's the issue when running 2 amps. Every time the signal passes through a triode in a 12AX7, the polarity inverts 180deg. It can be an issue when running a high gainer and a Fender type amp for clean sounds.

 

[nevusofota]

I have a similar set up to what you described. I used to rack my pedals and used a GCX and a midi foot controller. I left the rack set-up and went to a midi footcontroller/looper pedalboard about 2 years ago. I made the change because:
- it's one less piece of equipment to carry to a gig. I now carry my pedalboard, guitar, and amp. No rack to worry about.
- much prefer tweaking the pedals at my feet, vs going back to the rack.

In front of the amp I have: an EP Booster, wah, phaser. Of these only the EP is in a loop of the footcontroller.

In the loop I have: a volume pedal, compressor, trem/reverb (Flint). Chorus, and the Timeline. Of these the comp, chorus, and Timeline are in controller loops.

I keep the phaser and the Flint out of footcontroller loops because they are rarely on and I use them when I feel the need.

I went with a Musicomlabs controller because of the smaller size (I wanted to keep my board no bigger than a PT-2), I only need 4 main presets (clean patch, dry crunch, dry lead, wet lead), and its touring reputation/durability. I have absolutely no need to change program pedal order, which is the main difference that the much more expensive Boss ES-5 has.

 

[SpiderWars]

Good info here, thanks a bunch. I haven't discounted using an AX8, I just didn't know if that would suit my needs. The RJM Mastermind PBC was actually the unit I was eyeballing, even though recently a bunch of the modular RJM stuff was for sale on here. Dual amp capability is something I might actually use in the future. I'm pretty sure I will prefer the pedals at my feet except the always ON EQ. I put that on the amp so that the Send cable is short then the buffered signal gets sent to the Boost.

Considering that I don't have a Mobius or an H9 yet and they are pricey, maybe an AX8 (or FX8) is the way to go.

And I still need to get an Altoids can on my board.

 

[SpiderWars]

These look like they would be somewhat limiting (if I'm understanding them correctly) but they are inexpensive. There's one on ebay for $165 shipped but a long wait? Another for $220 shipped.

http://www.joyoaudio.com/en/product/show_204.html

 

[Zachman]

If you don't need to make ongoing adjustments to your pedals throughout the night, one approach would be to move your pedals to a rack and use something like the RJM Effect Gizmo.

I have a Randall 667 which has MIDI control of channel, boost, FX and Master1/2. I use a wah, BOSS GE-7, Eventide H9, and Seymour Duncan 805 in front of the amp, and a Peavey Autograph II (yes, really) and an Eventide H9 in the loop. I have just a single Eventide H9, but I use it in Pre/Post mode so that I can use it in front of the amp or in the loop.

I use the RJM Effect Gizmo for routing/switching pedals, whether in front of the amp or in the loop, along with a Rocktron MIDI Raider to control everything. There's certainly an element of complexity to a setup like this, but to me it's worth it. I can just press one button, and it changes the channel on my amp, enables or disables the loop, changes the program on my H9, and switches whatever pedals I want in or out of the chain. No tap dance, just a single button on the MIDI Raider for whatever I need.

Other than having that option of putting the pedals in a rack, what advantages would having a separate loop switcher and midi controller have? As far as I can tell, the Boss ES-5 or 8 can do the same things. I'm not opposed to separate pieces, just curious if I'm missing some obvious advantage of one over the other. I suppose another advantage is that I can upgrade one part and keep the other one the same.