PA Build Underway

[IndyWS6]

Greetings
Well, I started the investment in the PA gear for our band. We still don't have a lead singer nailed down (friggin' hard to do around here...), but we'll need the gear when we start gigging and it wouldn't hurt us to step up the quality of the sound in the rehearsal space. Since we aren't gigging yet and don't need the mains, I figured I'd start with the mixer and monitor system. That way we'll have a quality monitor system for practice and be able to start working on mixes, placement, etc. while becoming familiar with the gear. I had a PA "back in the day", but it's been a while since I was hands-on and there will be a learning curve. I posted some questions about gear over the last few months while doing research and here's what I have so far.

Yamaha MG32/14FX Mixer - by all accounts, a quality board for the money. I could have saved a couple hundred by going with the 24-channel version, but our drummer has a gigantic kit and, fully mic'd, he uses 10 channels. With the guitar cabs, acoustic guitars, vocal mic's, potentially keyboards, etc. we would have been close to maxed out on a 24-channel board. I figured 32 channels would give us all of the breathing room we'd need.

Samson Live! 612M Monitors (4) - I decided to go with active monitors (and will do the same with the mains...) and these seemed like a good choice. I wanted to go all JBL, but the price difference is substantial. I A/B'd these with JBL monitors and was surprised how well they stood their ground. They are a little "darker" and lack a little "punch" by comparison, but we can fix that with EQ and levels. At 300 watts each, they should cut through well. Speaking of EQ...

DBX 131s 31-Band EQ (4) - We will be running a separate EQ for each monitor (Aux Out --> EQ --> Monitor) which will let us drive them harder, if needed, and give each person the option to adjust tone to suit their preferences on stage. With the number of busses available we can also easily provide a separate monitor mix for each person if desired.

Assorted cables needed to connect everything...

It doesn't seem like a lot of gear - but it sure added up quickly. Once we get closer to gigging I'll invest in the "mains" side of the equation (DriveRack PX, (2) JBL PRX 625's, (2) JBL PRX 618's, etc.).

It's not guitar gear, but it is music related - I'm excited about having some new equipment to further the goal. Just thought I'd share

 

[blackba]

Looks like you have a nice start. Surprised you didn't just go with 2 dual 31 band EQs even though that would take more rack space.

The QSC powered speakers are very nice, check those out when you look for mains. I have never used the Samson speakers. I am not a big fan of low end JBL speakers, but like their higher end stuff.

 

[Schaf]

Looks like you have a nice start. Surprised you didn't just go with 2 dual 31 band EQs even though that would take more rack space.

The QSC powered speakers are very nice, check those out when you look for mains. I have never used the Samson speakers. I am not a big fan of low end JBL speakers, but like their higher end stuff.

Yeah, just don't get the JBL JRX series. We have the MRX's (nonpowered), which are the mid priced and they kick ass with sufficient power. Never heard the PRX's live before though. I've looked at them and they seem nice. Just be sure you get enough subs. We actually use two MRX 2 18 cabs and 2 single 12 cab with a horn and this combo sounds great. Most people around here get the 2 15 and a single horn cabs with a single sub on each side and our blows it away with the 2 18's on each side.

Schaf

 

[IndyWS6]

Thanks for the comments and suggestions. The PRX series kicks some serious ass. The 625's have dual 15's and a horn with 1,500 watts on board (3 x 500 watt Crown power) and the 618's are single 18" subs with 600 watts of Crown power. We've pretty much settled on the PRX's, but I'll definitely take a look at the QSC's - it will be a while before we need the mains, so I have time to do more research and head a different direction if warranted. It's a shame that there isn't any practical way to compare equipment like this (at least in my area). I'm stuck making a decision by reading specs and getting first-hand opinions.

 

[freeballinusa]

Yo Those EV252+ are amazing and beleive it or not an old Peavy CS1200x sounds better then most of the lite amps to me

 

[Greazygeo]

Don't get dual 15 /horn top boxes. Those Crown amps are not very good either.

 

[IndyWS6]

Don't get dual 15 /horn top boxes. Those Crown amps are not very good either.

Thanks for the post - can you expound a liitle? I'm assuming that you are suggesting something with a 12" speaker (or pair of them...) would be better than dual 15's for the mids. If that's the case, I would agree - but I haven't seen many options for mid / high cabs with 12's. Any suggestions? Also, why do you say the Crown amps aren't very good? Rack mount Crown gear certainly has a solid reuptation for quality. Are the components in the powered cabinets inferior in some way?

I'm certainly open to suggestions. My budget is ~$4,000 for (2) subs and (2) mid / high cabinets with something in the neighborhood of 4,000 watts (although that's not necessarily the best performance criteria). This PA will be used for typical bar and club venues. If anyone has options for powered mains, post away

 

[Jimmie]

Don't get dual 15 /horn top boxes. Those Crown amps are not very good either.

Thanks for the post - can you expound a liitle? I'm assuming that you are suggesting something with a 12" speaker (or pair of them...) would be better than dual 15's for the mids. If that's the case, I would agree - but I haven't seen many options for mid / high cabs with 12's. Any suggestions? Also, why do you say the Crown amps aren't very good? Rack mount Crown gear certainly has a solid reuptation for quality. Are the components in the powered cabinets inferior in some way?

I'm certainly open to suggestions. My budget is ~$4,000 for (2) subs and (2) mid / high cabinets with something in the neighborhood of 4,000 watts (although that's not necessarily the best performance criteria). This PA will be used for typical bar and club venues. If anyone has options for powered mains, post away

I have a pair of QSC KSub-12s, $1.5k, a pair of the matching powered subs are about a $2K. I haven't had them in a venue yet, but they are amazingly loud and clear.
edit: that wasn't an asking price, that is the price from B&H Photo new, sorry I rushed my post.

 

[blackba]

Don't get dual 15 /horn top boxes. Those Crown amps are not very good either.

+1 What I have seen on forums before is that its better to go with a 15/horn + sub, than dual 15's and horns. The 2nd 15 mainly just adds weight and you get some phase cancelation from the 2 15's being in a line (similar to what you get with a guitar cab like a 212).

 

[IndyWS6]

Don't get dual 15 /horn top boxes. Those Crown amps are not very good either.

+1 What I have seen on forums before is that its better to go with a 15/horn + sub, than dual 15's and horns. The 2nd 15 mainly just adds weight and you get some phase cancelation from the 2 15's being in a line (similar to what you get with a guitar cab like a 212).

But does that still apply with subs? We're looking at a pair of dual 15"/horn cabinets for mid's and highs and a pair of cabinets with single 18's for subs...

 

[blackba]

Don't get dual 15 /horn top boxes. Those Crown amps are not very good either.

+1 What I have seen on forums before is that its better to go with a 15/horn + sub, than dual 15's and horns. The 2nd 15 mainly just adds weight and you get some phase cancelation from the 2 15's being in a line (similar to what you get with a guitar cab like a 212).

But does that still apply with subs? We're looking at a pair of dual 15"/horn cabinets for mid's and highs and a pair of cabinets with single 18's for subs...

I prefer subs with single 15's or 18's, just since they are easier to move.

The point is, go with a 15/horn top and an 18" sub over a dual 15/horn top and 18" sub...

 

[mboogman]

I'll put in my two cents. Don't get mains with 15" drivers, unless you get three way boxes. 15's start to have weird intermodulation distortion/comb filtering at about 800hz, way below the normal crossover point for a compression driver. A good 12" 2-way box will almost always sound better than a 15. The QSC K series stuff is really great, but you've got to pay for it. In a pinch the Samson active stuff will work. I'd stay away from most any JBL stuff. Even the QSC K sub, which is a 2x12" sub is surprisingly powerful for the size box it is. I've not had any trouble getting 115 db in a gymnasium sized room with 2 K12's and 2 Ksubs. They're really easy to tote, and you don't have to haul around an amp rack.

 

[IndyWS6]

I'll put in my two cents. Don't get mains with 15" drivers, unless you get three way boxes. 15's start to have weird intermodulation distortion/comb filtering at about 800hz, way below the normal crossover point for a compression driver. A good 12" 2-way box will almost always sound better than a 15. The QSC K series stuff is really great, but you've got to pay for it. In a pinch the Samson active stuff will work. I'd stay away from most any JBL stuff. Even the QSC K sub, which is a 2x12" sub is surprisingly powerful for the size box it is. I've not had any trouble getting 115 db in a gymnasium sized room with 2 K12's and 2 Ksubs. They're really easy to tote, and you don't have to haul around an amp rack.

The QSC K-Sub's and K12's aren't any more expensive than the JBL's i've been looking at, so they could certainly be a possibility. How can a 2x12 enclosure reproduce lows as well as the 18" JBL sub?

 

[mboogman]

I'll put in my two cents. Don't get mains with 15" drivers, unless you get three way boxes. 15's start to have weird intermodulation distortion/comb filtering at about 800hz, way below the normal crossover point for a compression driver. A good 12" 2-way box will almost always sound better than a 15. The QSC K series stuff is really great, but you've got to pay for it. In a pinch the Samson active stuff will work. I'd stay away from most any JBL stuff. Even the QSC K sub, which is a 2x12" sub is surprisingly powerful for the size box it is. I've not had any trouble getting 115 db in a gymnasium sized room with 2 K12's and 2 Ksubs. They're really easy to tote, and you don't have to haul around an amp rack.

The QSC K-Sub's and K12's aren't any more expensive than the JBL's i've been looking at, so they could certainly be a possibility. How can a 2x12 enclosure reproduce lows as well as the 18" JBL sub?

The Ksub has internal processing in it that extends its usable low end down (in hz) a bit. While it's not a big double 18" sound, I'd put it up agains most single 18" front loaded subs. The QSC power makes a big difference too.

 

[Schaf]

Don't get dual 15 /horn top boxes. Those Crown amps are not very good either.

I agree, The dual 15 tops and 1 sub will sound muddy. Not enough thump and too much midrange. Lots of people use this configuration but I'm telling you that 4 18's and either a single 15 and horn or a 12 with a horn is going to sound much more balanced. Again, we use the 4 18's and a 12 and a horn. It out performs every system that I've heard with single sub on each side and the single or dual 18 on each side. If you want that concert sound you gotta have the thump!

Oh, and the comment about stay away from JBL stuff.....JBL makes some very good stuff. You have to get into the midlevel stuff or higher. What most people don't understand is when you get into the higher end stuff, then you have to have the power. For example, if you have two JBL SRX's 18's per side, ideally, it's going to take 5000 watts per side to power them the way they should be. It'll sound great though. Will it run on 3000 per side? Yes. Do you put yourself in a position to blow them at lower power. Yes. They will sound much better at 5000 like their speced.

Anyway.......

 

[Jimmie]

I'll put in my two cents. Don't get mains with 15" drivers, unless you get three way boxes. 15's start to have weird intermodulation distortion/comb filtering at about 800hz, way below the normal crossover point for a compression driver. A good 12" 2-way box will almost always sound better than a 15. The QSC K series stuff is really great, but you've got to pay for it. In a pinch the Samson active stuff will work. I'd stay away from most any JBL stuff. Even the QSC K sub, which is a 2x12" sub is surprisingly powerful for the size box it is. I've not had any trouble getting 115 db in a gymnasium sized room with 2 K12's and 2 Ksubs. They're really easy to tote, and you don't have to haul around an amp rack.

The QSC K-Sub's and K12's aren't any more expensive than the JBL's i've been looking at, so they could certainly be a possibility. How can a 2x12 enclosure reproduce lows as well as the 18" JBL sub?

they carry QSC at guitar center if you have one near by. Best to go and check them out. I love the fact that you can carry 1000 watt powered enclosures at 40lbs each. If you want to expand your system, they are daisy chain-able with a variety of cabling options.

 

[IndyWS6]

Don't get dual 15 /horn top boxes. Those Crown amps are not very good either.

I agree, The dual 15 tops and 1 sub will sound muddy. Not enough thump and too much midrange. Lots of people use this configuration but I'm telling you that 4 18's and either a single 15 and horn or a 12 with a horn is going to sound much more balanced. Again, we use the 4 18's and a 12 and a horn. It out performs every system that I've heard with single sub on each side and the single or dual 18 on each side. If you want that concert sound you gotta have the thump!

Oh, and the comment about stay away from JBL stuff.....JBL makes some very good stuff. You have to get into the midlevel stuff or higher. What most people don't understand is when you get into the higher end stuff, then you have to have the power. For example, if you have two JBL SRX's 18's per side, ideally, it's going to take 5000 watts per side to power them the way they should be. It'll sound great though. Will it run on 3000 per side? Yes. Do you put yourself in a position to blow them at lower power. Yes. They will sound much better at 5000 like their speced.

Anyway.......

Are you saying that the JBL PRX gear falls below their mid-level equipment? I thought that was their mid-level powered line...

 

[Greazygeo]

Don't get dual 15 /horn top boxes. Those Crown amps are not very good either.

Thanks for the post - can you expound a liitle? I'm assuming that you are suggesting something with a 12" speaker (or pair of them...) would be better than dual 15's for the mids. If that's the case, I would agree - but I haven't seen many options for mid / high cabs with 12's. Any suggestions? Also, why do you say the Crown amps aren't very good? Rack mount Crown gear certainly has a solid reuptation for quality. Are the components in the powered cabinets inferior in some way?

I'm certainly open to suggestions. My budget is ~$4,000 for (2) subs and (2) mid / high cabinets with something in the neighborhood of 4,000 watts (although that's not necessarily the best performance criteria). This PA will be used for typical bar and club venues. If anyone has options for powered mains, post away

The Crown power amps they use in the powered speakers are not the same as say a Crown xTI. They are more like the XL dj stuff. I had the Mpro powered subs. 1st gig amp went out, repaired under warranty.....2nd gig amp went out again...replaced under warranty....no third gig for me, I sold them.

The powered QSC stuff is nice for med to small rooms. Larger rooms you need a bunch of them. They sound very good and setup / teardown is nice and quick. But they don't have alot of throw. I've used the subs with the dual 12's. Single 18's may gain alittle more bottom, but output should be about the same.

Your top boxes you can go with either 12's or 15's, either is fine just stay with one woofer per box cabs. The dual 15/ horn boxes are not intended to run with subs, more for standalone dj apps.

If you are looking for powered cabs, I had the best luck with Yorkville. With single woofer subs, if you want throw and thump go for something hornloaded. They will be bigger, but they put out! Front loaded cabs are good too but you need alot more of them to get the output. Something like the LS608 sub, two per side would be thunderous, though they are unpowered. The Yorkville NX series tops are powered and will sound great.

If you are looking at JBL stuff, SRX is where you want to be if you can afford it. I don't like anything lower than that.

my system was Yorkville Elite EF500P tops with LS800 subs. Awesome output and sound in a relatively small footprint.

 

[IndyWS6]

Don't get dual 15 /horn top boxes. Those Crown amps are not very good either.

Thanks for the post - can you expound a liitle? I'm assuming that you are suggesting something with a 12" speaker (or pair of them...) would be better than dual 15's for the mids. If that's the case, I would agree - but I haven't seen many options for mid / high cabs with 12's. Any suggestions? Also, why do you say the Crown amps aren't very good? Rack mount Crown gear certainly has a solid reuptation for quality. Are the components in the powered cabinets inferior in some way?

I'm certainly open to suggestions. My budget is ~$4,000 for (2) subs and (2) mid / high cabinets with something in the neighborhood of 4,000 watts (although that's not necessarily the best performance criteria). This PA will be used for typical bar and club venues. If anyone has options for powered mains, post away

The Crown power amps they use in the powered speakers are not the same as say a Crown xTI. They are more like the XL dj stuff. I had the Mpro powered subs. 1st gig amp went out, repaired under warranty.....2nd gig amp went out again...replaced under warranty....no third gig for me, I sold them.

The powered QSC stuff is nice for med to small rooms. Larger rooms you need a bunch of them. They sound very good and setup / teardown is nice and quick. But they don't have alot of throw. I've used the subs with the dual 12's. Single 18's may gain alittle more bottom, but output should be about the same.

Your top boxes you can go with either 12's or 15's, either is fine just stay with one woofer per box cabs. The dual 15/ horn boxes are not intended to run with subs, more for standalone dj apps.

If you are looking for powered cabs, I had the best luck with Yorkville. With single woofer subs, if you want throw and thump go for something hornloaded. They will be bigger, but they put out! Front loaded cabs are good too but you need alot more of them to get the output. Something like the LS608 sub, two per side would be thunderous, though they are unpowered. The Yorkville NX series tops are powered and will sound great.

If you are looking at JBL stuff, SRX is where you want to be if you can afford it. I don't like anything lower than that.

my system was Yorkville Elite EF500P tops with LS800 subs. Awesome output and sound in a relatively small footprint.

Unfortunately, the SRX line is above my limit for this particular expense. I'm sure they are worth it, but I need to stretch the investment dollars a little farther. I've heard good things about Yorkville, but have no direct exposure to them. None of the bands around here use them and there doesn't seem to be any way to get a listen to them. There are a lot of choices and with the amount of money it will take to buy the gear, I sure don't want to make a bad one...

 

[blackba]

FWIW, I can recommend the Yorkville LS608 subs, that is what I have. They are great.