PA Effects Essentials

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IndyWS6

IndyWS6

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Greetings :)
My band has been booking and we start gigging on a regular basis next weekend. This will be our first outing with a completely new PA. The board that I bought (Yamaha MG32/14) has dual on-board effect processors which we will use for reverbs/delay - until/unless we have better options. My effects rack currently has (4) 31-band EQ's (one for each of four separate monitor sends) and a dual 31-band EQ for FOH. The EQ's are used for obvious reasons as well as an additional gain stage for the powered monitors and FOH cabinets.

The questions is, what effects and/or sound processing equipment do you think is essential? Given that I still need some necessities (a 32-channel/8-send snake, for example), I need to prioritize the purchases. What are you doing for sound reinforcement to get the most bang for the buck? I'd like to build a pick list for future purchases and your input would help.

If it matters, we will be playing the generic bar band circuit in venues that are less than ideal and we'll have a dedicated and capable sound guy running the gear from off-stage.

Thanks in advance :rock:
 
I typically go for compression before I go anywhere else. Helps even out live vocals, and if used well, can really help add some punch in a mix. I work as a live sound guy, and 9 times out of 10, I'll completely forego reverb and delay to get my compressors set up correctly.
 
That was one of the first things I was considering. It might be a dumb question, but how do you deploy them? Most mid-level compressors (DBX, etc) are one and two channel units and are in the $300+ price range. A four-channel is naturally more. Not knowing what might need compressing, do you just cable to compressors in the rack as the need arises during sound check in anticipation of going live? It would be great to have compression available for every channel, but at those prices it's not feasible for my budget.

What are your thoughts on the DriveRack PX? I bought QSC KW-Series cabinets for FOH (KW153's & KW181's). The QSC rep said that the onboard controls made the DriveRack unnecessary, but others have stated that it is still a good unit to have - EQ, Compression/Limiting, Sub-Harmonic Extension, Feedback Extermination, etc. Would the compressors on the DriveRack be a reasonable substitute for individual channel compression?

Thanks for the input. Much appreciated :thumbsup:
 
There are a few things that I always assume will benefit from compression.

1. Kick Drum
2. Bass guitar
3. Vocals
and then if there's any left over:
  • Snare
  • Overheads
  • Keys

We've got a couple of Presonus ACP88s. They're pricy, but the cost per channel is excellent. Of all the dual channel units I've used, I much prefer the dbx compressors. The 266 (I think) is a good unit for the price. I've tried the Alesis, and for me, I just couldn't gel with it. YMMV

To answer the Driverack question. It's more of a speaker processor/crossover with a lot of bells and whistles. You could try to use it for main mix compression, but I wouldn't use a ratio higher than 2:1. After all, you don't want to completely squash your mix. :thumbsup:
$.02
 
I will have to agree with mboogman. I prefer the dbx compressors over Alesis as well. Also, the Drive rack is a great unit, if you want all-in-one, crossover, eq, compression/limiter, alignment tools and some effects. However, if you want something to be able to individually insert into channels, the drive rack is NOT it.

You already have the EQ's and if the speakers you have already come with crossover capabilities, you might be better off getting your compression from a couple dbx units or as was mentioned a Presonus with 8 channels. I never tried the Presonus, but looked at it for a while. I ended up going with a pair of dbx 2 channel units and that's enough for most gigs.

I don't compress the bass guitar usually...I go kick, snare, lead vocals. Then, usually it's another voice that gets the 4th channel, not bass or keys. I suppose I could grab another unit at some point and include the bass and/or the overheads. Don't seem to have much issue with keys needing compression. Just my experience...

Good luck, compression can really add a lot to the mix. Just remember, less is more :D
 
You don't need a drive rack. You just need a good FOH EQ. What EQs do you run? We use a DBX 2231. You seem to have really FOH good speakers. Your best asset is going to be your sound guy. Next best thing is probably good mics. What are you running for monitors? Klark Teknik Square One would probably be a good option for comps.
 
I appreciate the input :thumbsup:

To answer the questions, I went with DBX EQ's. I have (4) DBX 131s for monitors and a DBX 231s for FOH. They seem to be quality units and good bang for the buck. The monitors are Samson Live! 612's and are the most "generic" components I have. I A/B'd them with the powered JBL equivalent and honestly didn't hear a lot of difference - and they were half the cost of the JBL's. Considering that monitors tend to take it tough in the venues that we play, and that we are strongly considering an in-ear solution if the gigs remain constant, it seemed like a reasonable choice.

MBOOGMAN: When you compress vocals, do you do it on an individual basis or do you route the vocal channels to a sub group and compress from there?

GTARLOVER: What model of DBX compressor are you using?

The DriveRack seems like a great all-in-one tool, but some of it's features overlap the built-in DSP functions of the QSC speakers (according to the QSC rep) and I already have an EQ for FOH (which would be another duplicate function). There still might be some benefit to having one, but that goes down even further if I buy stand-alone compressors. I think I'll hold off on that for now and look at stand-alone components.

The DBX 266XS is a 2-channel compressor/gate unit. I could get a pair of those for less than $300 (they're actually on sale now for $120 each after rebate). Would that be a viable option? The next step up is the DBX 1066 - and it's $430 for 2-channels...

The Klark Teknik gear is a little out of my budget...

Thanks Again :rock:
 
IndyWS6":2gpi3y67 said:
MBOOGMAN: When you compress vocals, do you do it on an individual basis or do you route the vocal channels to a sub group and compress from there?
Click to expand...

I've done both. If I only have one channel, I'll stick it on the lead Vox, and forget the rest. If I have two channels and multiple vocalists, I'll take my second channel, and compress the BGvox in a group. but you need to remember, it's going to be post fader, so how hard you ride the BGvox will affect your compression.

BTW, the KW series are pretty great speakers. One of my preferred powered boxes right now. :thumbsup:
 
We use the DBX 266xl and it works fine. We just run the entire mix into it, left into channel 1 and right into channel 2 and hit the Auto button. There is another function for "overeasy" which we also use which makes the gating and compression come in a little less abruptly. It works fine like this, especially if you don't have a guy on the console who is really skilled. Just make sure you don't turn the limiter/gate up too high. We had problems at one gig with the mains coming in and out. After a bunch of head scratching and checking for bad cables, bad input jacks, etc, we figured out that the limiter knob had gotten bumped and turned way up. :doh:

We don't have a genius on the sound board so we are usually running back and forth like a bunch of spaz's from the stage to the board during soundcheck, so for us, having a button to push that takes the knob twisting out of the equation and sounds fine is really a plus. As stated by Mboogman, if you are going to compress the entire mix, run a low ratio or just use the auto feature.

As for effects, run them sparingly, but a little reverb and/or delay on the vocals is about all I ever want. Depends on the room. Outdoors, it is a definite plus. Inside an echoey room you might not want any. I assume you know that effects in the monitor mix is almost always a bad idea.
 
I am a fan of learn the techniques then spend the big money later. I use Behringer composer pro's and vintage 166's in the same rack. We aren't talking about studio level sound quality, and this is a chance to learn how you want to go.

Behringer Composers are very servicable and havenot let me down yet.

save for the 1066's once you become a regional touring act. I had one of those once, they are awesome.

Also remember, this stuff is going to hit the road, I.E. Vibration, shock, spilt beer, overzealous women tearing their shirts off... Ok well maybe not the last one, but you need to not Overspend in case something gets damaged and is irreplacable based on your budget.

my .02
 
also, you can save a LOT of scratch in external gear if you buy one of those new Presonus 16 channel digital boards. You wont need racks then. It is all built in AND you can multitrack record your performances.

sorry for the overshare, I am more FOH engineer than guitarist.
 
MBOOGMAN: Thanks for the information... Everyone in the band sings (some better than others...), so your approach makes a lot of sense. I think I'll try that - put the lead vocals on one channel and group the background vocals and send them to another. I hadn't considered the post-fader thing, so thanks for that. I probably would have discovered it an an inconvenient time, if you know what I mean...

I'm very pleased with the KW-Series cabinets. I had JBL, Mackie and QSC on my short list when I went shopping and fully expected to walk out with JBL's. I had the chance to A/B them all under similar conditions at Sweetwater's Gear Fest and was surprised by how poorly the JBL's sounded by comparison. The Mackie's were a close second but some reliability issues with the HD series steered me towards the QSC's. Plus, by registering them on-line, I have a 6-year warranty. Hard to beat...


GTARLOVER: Thanks for the information... It looks like the 266xs replaced the 266xl in DBX's product line, so I assume it would provide the results you mention. I'm strongly considering a pair of them while there is a $30 rebate. Four channels of DBX compression for $240 seems like a good buy.


MILERKY2: Thanks for the information, and I agree... I see the DBX stuff as middle of the road. Can I get cheaper? Sure. Can I get gear that is way more expensive? Absolutely. But, I doubt that the drunks in the venues we play are going to know the difference. I tend to buy quality products, but keep the fact that we're playing bars in the middle of a cornfield in mind. I've also invested in quality (again, middle of the road) racks cases from Road Ready for all of the gear. Hopefully we'll have more overzealous women than drunk dudes spilling beer. Ahh, who am I kidding... :doh:

I love the features of the Presonus board, and actually considered it, but decided to go with the Yamaha MG32/14FX for reasons of cost, familarity and channel count. Don't worry about "over sharing". I appreciate the information and comments

:rock:
 
i guess, my point is, even thought the behringer and alesis compressors are there to do one thing, compress. They are fairly transparent and do the job in a way that is cost effective and unnoticable in your situation.

spend more money on outboard effects and patching. Dynamics are dynamics for live. Dont skimp on cabling though. Good insert cables for your compression is important.

sidebar- if you are going to insert compression on busses, DO spend a little more on a good DBX. I know it is counter intuative to what i said earlier, but it helps with warmth.

My post-process rack I use with my live rigs is a Behringer Composer pro, into a Digital Ultracurve Pro then into JBL crossovers.

sounds fantastic and costs very little.
 
Thanks for the information. Much appreciated :thumbsup:

Nearly every place I checked has the DBX 266xs for $149.00. With the holiday sales several retailers are offering, I was able to get Sweetwater to knock 10% off and include the free shipping they normally provide (I prefer to deal with Sweetwater when possible). DBX also has a $30 rebate on those units right now, so I ordered two of them today. That will give me 4 channels of quality (although not necessarily top-of-the-line) compression for just over $225. Seems like a good deal to me.

Now - with EQ and Compression / Gate functions out of the way. What's next on the "must have" list for outboard PA gear?
 
In my FOH rig, ( house of worship) i have 8 effects processors in my console. But I do use 2 outboard FX processors. A Yamaha SPX900 for vocal verbs, and a TC electronic M-One for a BGV chorus/verb.

If you use delay as an effect, it will be a good idea to get a seperate delay unit from your onboards, like a D-two that will allow your FOH to tap the tempos. Also, it has a great dynamic delay that self ducks the delay.
 
We're a typical "Modern Rock Meets Classic" kind of bar band. Steppenwolf, Kid Rock, Alice in Chains, Stone temple Pilots, Judas Priest, 3 Doors Down, The Script, Van Halen, Tesla, etc.

If I'm not mistaken, the on-board effect processors in my Yamaha MX32/14FX are based on the SPX900. One of them also has tap-tempo functionality directly on the board, if that makes a difference in what you might suggest.

Thanks again for the input...
 
here's where i mix
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here's what i use in the rack:
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i also installed two yamaha M16/6fx boards in our media room so i am familiar with those as well

great advice so far

here's something outside the box for you that is cheap and indispensable for me these days if you have an iphone handy:

http://www.studiosixdigital.com/audiotools/fft/

i have used this app hundreds of times while running sound to track down pesky frequencies instantly and eliminate ringing, rumble, feedback, as well as assess the overall "health" of the mix. get repeatable consistent results.
 
MENTONEMAN - Thanks for the input...

The setup at your church is impressive, to say the least. I've seen some of your posts and the caliber of musician's that you host in the venue. It must be exciting and rewarding. I don't have an iPhone, but I do have an iPod touch - I'll take a look at that app. If I'm not mistaken, our bass player (who is also an FOH engineer for several local bands) uses it in our rehearsal space - mostly to point fingers at "those loud guitar players" :D

Thanks again for the recommendation :thumbsup:

Mark
 
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