Phase inverter tube question

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I just read on a site about different versions of the 12AX7 preamp tube, including most of the variants and their power rating compared to the 12AX7.
While I was reading, it mentioned that replacing the 12AT7 in the phase inverter slot with a weaker version would make the power tubes run harder and get power tube saturation easier.

The question is..."Will changing a 12AT7 in the phase inverter position on a Diezel amp to a lower powered 12A(?)7 version hurt the amp in any way, the tubes in the amp, transformers, anything?"

Thank you in advance for any info you might be able to provide.
Stephen
 
C-4":1n9buojy said:
I just read on a site about different versions of the 12AX7 preamp tube, including most of the variants and their power rating compared to the 12AX7.
While I was reading, it mentioned that replacing the 12AT7 in the phase inverter slot with a weaker version would make the power tubes run harder and get power tube saturation easier.

The question is..."Will changing a 12AT7 in the phase inverter position on a Diezel amp to a lower powered 12A(?)7 version hurt the amp in any way, the tubes in the amp, transformers, anything?"

Thank you in advance for any info you might be able to provide.
Stephen


The phase inverter tube is already a 12AX7. A 12AT7 is a milder tube than a 12AX7.

Steve
 
You can use 12AT7, 5751 and ECC81 w/out any problems. (=rel. 60-70% gain of a 12AX7/ECC83).

Don't use 12AU7/ECC82. (rel. 20% gain of an ECC83/12AX7).
 
Great question C-4.I've been wanting to do same type of thing.I've read your posts about V-1,2,3 changes.Was curios what tubes ..i.e 12 au7 for V1&v2,12at7 for V3?I only run 2 power tubes in my 100 wt Einy.I only run gain on channal 2 at about 12 .My fear is if i run lower V-1 ...V-3 I will lose too much gain.I run EL34's and love my harmonics.Thankx Steve :confused:
 
C-4

Are you content with your current tone amid your Diezel Herbert and VH4 amps?

If this is the case, then ask yourself this; am I just fidgeting?
 
King Crimson,
No, I was asking as the article mentioned that it allows the power tubes to saturate more easily. I base my tone on both preamp and power tube saturation blended together, which gives me a sort of Clapton playing the original Cream recording of Crossroads from the 1960's tone...violinesque, but with the ability to get crunch as well as smooth from the amp without adjusting any dials upon demand.

Subzero,
There is a point on the gain control on my Einstein, above which the amp loses it's clarity and transparency. On my amp it is at about 2 o'clock. Above this point, the amp has so much saturation from the preamp tubes that the character of the guitar I am using, an XOX Handle, that it wouldn't matter what I was playing on, even a board with strings.

By lowering my preamp tube output, I am able to move the gain controls up and down further, getting the full use of that dial, and still have saturation without the transparency of the saturation being lost.

This is personal taste and may not be loved by another individual player trying it. I am not trying to get my the Einstein to sound like a Marshall, but for the sake of comparison, it gives me the saturation and still retains the "thrust" of the note similar to a cross between a Marshall SLP dimed and a JCM 800. The notes all retain clarity in the distortion, but in a Diezel way and yet I have total control over getting feedback and all the saturation I can get before the distortion covers up that transparency.

I usually set up the amp to give me feedback just enough to allow me to play without losing control of the amp and yet when I want controlled feedback it is right there. My band tells me that the amp has all the great tone and still has the crunch and drive in a 3-D way combined that make it sound so good to them.

I would suggest trying a 12AT7 in V-1 first with 12AU7's in V-2, V-3 slots. By trying a 12AT7 in V-1 first, you get the most power and volume. By using a 12AT7 in V-2, channel two will get plenty of saturation, but the amp responds differently. It also changes the output volume of the amp by using lower powered preamp tubes in any of these V slots.

It took me several trials to see where I liked the sound the best, but ultimately for my needs, I use 12AU7's in all three V slots, and a 12AT7 in the phase inverter slot. The character of the amp still differs, depending on which brand of tube I use. My personal preference is for a NOS Telefunken in V-1 and NOS Mullards in V-2 and V-3. The Mullards are sweeter sounding then the Telefunken, but the Telefunken gives the amp a more Fendery tone when used in V-1 and this helps to allow me to get more then just a sweet tone in both channels. I wind up turning up the treble and presence a bit more, but the amp opens up, sounds a bit less compressed and I have better control of how sweet, or how much edge I wish to use for any given room. The treble is also less fatiguing I am told by my band, as the Mullards have a really beautiful tone without the harshness sometimes associated with chinese tubes.

If you are pulling two of the four power tubes in your Einstein, if you like what you hear after trying out weaker preamp tubes, you may wish to reinstall the other two power tubes and allow the amp to get a bit more volume, depending on your needs.

Happy New Year to both of you guys, as well as the entire forum. :thumbsup: :yes:
Stephen
 
Well, your approach is similar to adding a line level attenuator between preamp & power amp. You could as well just put an attenuator in your serial loop & adjust the output to your liking.

That said this whole idea of more power tube distortion is pretty misleading. You would definitely get to run your master volume higher, but whether that would give you more power tube saturation or not is up to a debate.
 
C-4":jzonetk4 said:
King Crimson,
No, I was asking as the article mentioned that it allows the power tubes to saturate more easily. I base my tone on both preamp and power tube saturation blended together, which gives me a sort of Clapton playing the original Cream recording of Crossroads from the 1960's tone...violinesque, but with the ability to get crunch as well as smooth from the amp without adjusting any dials upon demand.

Stephen
Would you point me to this article if it is available? I'm curious too, but I tend to sometimes enter this fidgeting loop and realize that what I have at the time is sufficient, but you may be on to something here.
 
King Crimson":lae1qmv5 said:
C-4":lae1qmv5 said:
King Crimson,
No, I was asking as the article mentioned that it allows the power tubes to saturate more easily. I base my tone on both preamp and power tube saturation blended together, which gives me a sort of Clapton playing the original Cream recording of Crossroads from the 1960's tone...violinesque, but with the ability to get crunch as well as smooth from the amp without adjusting any dials upon demand.

Stephen
Would you point me to this article if it is available? I'm curious too, but I tend to sometimes enter this fidgeting loop and realize that what I have at the time is sufficient, but you may be on to something here.
HappyNewYear_Pic.jpg
 
I went back to see if I could find the article I read yesterday, but I was skipping around and did not mark the site when I did read it.

I could not find it today, but I think that is due to it being buried several layers deep and attached to another article I was reading.

I am going to keep looking for it. If I do find it, I will save it and bring it up here.

Based on Peter's dislike for attenuators, I would never consider using one, unless it was like a power scaling device built into the amp.

Happy New Year!
Stephen
 
Based on Peter's dislike for attenuators, I would never consider using one, unless it was like a power scaling device built into the amp.

Peter's dislike about attenuators concerns guitar attenuators, the ones that are used after the power section, which can damage the output transformer.

The one I'm telling you about is similar to using any EFX in your serial loop.
 
Thanks for the input C-4.I don't play that loud anymore.I use new Mullard el-34's and am planning on using winged c when funds become availble.I liked your approach and Duess said you had exp with the Einy.Was hoping to maybe get a bit more power tube saturation.I love the abilitly to get harmonics.I play a historic gold top with stock pups and an Ibanez through body with a evelution for the Van Halen type stuff.Like you ,I find setting the gain on chan 2 past 12 is a bit much.This is why I was considering running the au or at.I was just not sure how many au or at to buy and placement.My tastes vary from Dwayne allman to Van Halen,Santana or my original pronect.Thank god for Diezel flexability.Truth be told ,I will probally be buying a Duess Littel Joe in the spring. :thumbsup:
 
I tried a High output long plate 12AT7EH in the Phase Inverter Position, and liked what I heard... I got a More Organic Tone than with the Chinese 12AX7 that came with the amp.

Being The last tube before the output tubes get the signal... I feel it's beneficial because Although this High Output 12AT might have 20% less Gain, It has TEN TIMES the Current of a
12AX7 .

Best,

Roid RAGE
 
Subzero,
I have not been able to get power tube saturation from my Einstein and as per Peter, that amp is not designed to offer up power tube saturation.
Based on your post, I might suggest using a 12AT7 in V-1, and a 12AU7 in V-2 and V-3 to start things off.
If you don't prefer the saturation settings that offers up, switch out the 12AU7 in V-2 with the the 12AT7 in V-1.
Keep me posted on your findings.
Happy New Year.
Stephen
 
Well, I tried my own suggestion, I used my MXR-EQ with input & output volume on it for attenuator in the serial loop. Power tube saturation this didn't add, which I clearly wouldn't expect out of Herbert, that said this is a godsend for those of you who think that ch3 or ch2+ are too compressed. You can dial channel volumes as high as you wish & attenuate it in the serial loop, before hitting the power section. Try it and stop complaining about too much compression right away!
This could really open up the VH4 at lower volumes.

That said switching to a 12at7 is WAY less reduction compared to what I did, so I doubt it would bear results as impressive as this setup.
 
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