Rebel 20 - Help needed for purchase decision

[roadking]

Hi Bruce, hi Jeff,

I am an Austrian guitarist, who mainly likes to play in the style of Johnny Winter (most famous blues guitarist ever ;-) ). For home use practising and rehearsal I need a suitable amp. "Googling" through the internet I found your REBEL 20 + 112X Cab and my first impression was WOW !!!!!!!!!! - a KILLERAMP !
Searching for more information I discovered a couple of forums with user reviews of your products. In "Harmony Central" I found much too much reviews which run down your products (Rebel and Tourmaster).
The question ist: What do you think about those reviews? Is there a grain of truth ?
The reason why I am asking you this is:
In Austria we don't have retailers who carry Egnater amps, so I have to import from France, Netherlands or Germany(btw much too expensive in this country !!); the retailers on your website don't ship to Austria. If ther are upcoming problems, it is difficult for me to find a service center, it will be expensive (transportation costs) and it will be a time consuming process.

Discovering the Rebel on your website made me really happy and after reading the feratures I really like to have one.

So what shall I do ? Probably wait for the next generation of the rebel ?
Or: Are the reviewers at Harmony Central too stupid to handle Egnater amps ?

What would you advise me as amp guru not as a marketing guy ? ;-)

Many thanks in advance
Regards

roadking

 

[marvcus]

Or: Are the reviewers at Harmony Central too stupid to handle Egnater amps ?

roadking

That's great!

 

[Armchair Bronco]

I don't have a Rebel 20 (...yet...) but like you, I've been researching the Egnater Rebel 20 for the last couple of weeks, so I have some anecdotal feedback.

First, there are only 3 "User Reviews" of the Rebel 20 on Harmony-Central right now, and one of them was from a guy who hadn't played it more than 20 minutes in a store. For this reason, he didn't provide any feedback numbers (which was fair) and he admitted that he had barely scratched the surface with this amp.

There have been lots of other threads, both on HC, and elsewhere, and almost universally people are excited about this amp, and those that own it seem to love it. Here's a great thread on the Orange Amps forum, for example: http://forum.orangeamps.com/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=31364

The Rebel 20 is generating as much enthusiasm as the Orange Tiny Terror did when it was first released...and that's a good thing! I looks like Egnater has a winner on its hands with this amp head.

Most reviewers have said that the Rebel seems "rugged" and "well made". Some even say "it's built like tank". But obviously, this thing is so new that we don't really know just how rugged it is in the long term. I read one reviewer who criticized the "whimpy" handle and said it seemed very cheap. If so, that would be an easy enough fix.

The other negative remarks that I've heard more than once are these:

1. The power amp tube blending doesn't change the tone as much as people expected it would (it's more like adding a different spice to the same meal as opposed to eating a different meal altogether).

2. The effects loops requires "professional level" pedals capable of adjusting their output volume to work effectively, and apparently this isn't well documented in the Owner's Manual (it just says that you need to use "professional" pedals, but it doesn't really explain what this means). I don't use pedals with my rig, so I don't really know all the details about this criticism, but I've read several reviews that made this comment.

I think you should go back to Harmony Central and search for *threads* that have the terms "Egnater Rebel 20", maybe do the same at the Orange Amps site, and I think you'll find that overwhelmingly people LOVE this little amp. Obviously, you'll be taking a chance if you buy one given your location in Austria. But then so would someone who lives in Kansas! Me, I live in Seattle -- home of Jimi Hendrix, Grunge, and Nirvana -- so I'm OK!

 

[RockStarNick]

Roadking,

I just read the reviews on the Rebel... most of them are giving it 9s or 10s. A few people complained about noise, and then said swapping out the preamp tubes solved that. Which, that's the first thing I do whenever I get ANY amp is swap out tubes.

If you're not in a huge rush, wait it out a bit, wait for some more reviews, etc. I have not heard many negatives at all though. I guess you can't really say how durable the amp is for long term over a year, two years... because it's only been out for a few months. My guess is that it's built very, very well.

Side Note, directed towards HC reviewers: I can't stand when people complain about noise from stock tubes. If you bought a beautiful $1000 chandelier, and one of the light bulbs blew out, would you return the entire lamp? NO, you'd change the light bulb. Same with tubes. Tubes are fragile and unpredictable. I'm sure that when Bruce looked at a expense breakdown, he'd much rather put extra $ into quality parts and assembly, rather than making sure every amp is shipped with a $20 premium preamp tube. ya know?

 

[Armchair Bronco]

Side Note, directed towards HC reviewers: I can't stand when people complain about noise from stock tubes. If you bought a beautiful $1000 chandelier, and one of the light bulbs blew out, would you return the entire lamp? NO, you'd change the light bulb. Same with tubes. Tubes are fragile and unpredictable. I'm sure that when Bruce looked at a expense breakdown, he'd much rather put extra $ into quality parts and assembly, rather than making sure every amp is shipped with a $20 premium preamp tube. ya know?

True enough, and I agree with you completely. However, there's no surer way to piss off someone who has just shelled out $600 for a new amp than to have them flip the switch off standby at home for their first jam session with their new toy and have it start farting at them.

In general, I think amp companies could spend a few dollars more on slightly higher quality tubes to avoid this situation. My Orange Tiny Terror didn't fire up at the shop when I first picked it up, and the store had to put in some new tubes on the spot. (I got it from Emerald City Guitars in Seattle, and they've been an awesome company to work with, by the way: http://www.emeraldcityguitars.com/) It wasn't a big deal, but for that day at least, it planted a little seed of doubt and left me scratching my head for a couple of days.

 

[Jeff Hilligan]

In general, I think amp companies could spend a few dollars more on slightly higher quality tubes to avoid this situation.

spending more money does not make the tubes more reliable. The state of tube manufacturing is so variable with quality right now that really no amount of money will fix the quality control of building them go away. It's 50 technology that has not been really improved.

 

[mmorse]

The state of tube manufacturing has always been variable. Back in its heyday, plenty of bad quality tubes got manufactured. Sometimes whole runs were bad. The difference was, there was plenty of demand for tubes so manufacturers could afford to weed out and recycle the bad stuff. Today, the tube business is a tiny fraction of what it used to be so the few manufacturers there are really can't afford to trash defective product even though they should. The result is some stinkers find their way into products like guitar amps.

And even well tested and graded tubes can fail quickly in a circuit. Just the nature of the beast. Though it doesn't instill a lot of confidence when it happens in your shiny new amp.

 

[GtrWiz]

The other negative remarks that I've heard more than once are these:

1. The power amp tube blending doesn't change the tone as much as people expected it would (it's more like adding a different spice to the same meal as opposed to eating a different meal altogether).

I've read this too, and have to say those folks must have tin ears... I spent 20 minutes with one, and not only is it a HUGE difference between 6v6 and el84's (think Fender BF Deluxe and a Vox AC-30 respectively), the you have the ability to blend those sounds!!!

Really an amazing amp.

 

[Armchair Bronco]

The other negative remarks that I've heard more than once are these:

1. The power amp tube blending doesn't change the tone as much as people expected it would (it's more like adding a different spice to the same meal as opposed to eating a different meal altogether).

I've read this too, and have to say those folks must have tin ears... I spent 20 minutes with one, and not only is it a HUGE difference between 6v6 and el84's (think Fender BF Deluxe and a Vox AC-30 respectively), the you have the ability to blend those sounds!!!

Really an amazing amp.

Well, it's great to hear another opinion about this. When I first read it, I was surprised and figured that maybe the reviewers didn't have the amp (or guitar) turned up high enough or something. Or maybe the reviewers were dudes who are in 80's Big Hair cover bands and are more into solid state amps without much "hands on" knowledge of tube amps.

A conventional tube amp is a lot like a Gibson SG Jr. with one rocking P90 in the bridge position: they're very cool, but they have less than half the tonal options of their big brother, the SG Classic armed with twin P90's and a 3-way switch.

Like my signature sez, I'm GAS'ing big time for an Egnater Rebel 20!

 

[Buckeyedog]

Stay away from HC for reviews mostly, or at least weed through them carefully.

Check this thread out:

https://www.thegearpage.net/board/showth ... p?t=455934

Oh, and check out these demo's. I think they sound pretty good.

http://www.egnater.com/news/?p=8

 

[3 Mile Stone]

I have a Rebel. The only legitimate complaint is that some users are having difficulties with some type of effects loop issues. I have no issues myself. Some of that is due to the effects being used. It's hard to make a loop that works for every pedal under the sun, and some people like to stick some very interesting things in thier effects loops. Jeff and Bruce will sort this out. (I should talk, being that I have run my Vox Tone LE for delays only for quite some time ... it sounds spectacular by the way, beautiful modulated, digital, multi tap and analog delays. It's a delay extravaganza!) Back on subject, buy a Rebel ... fear not ... tone will flow like lava from your speakers and you will not believe how good it sounds. Keep a towel handy

 

[Buckeyedog]

They did just come out with a mod to fix the loop/noise issue. It is very difficult to design a loop to work with all effects. So far the result has been great. Here is the thread.......fix toward the end of the thread.

https://www.thegearpage.net/board/showth ... p?t=458596

 

[nikki-k]

Tube Blend: I guess some do not hear it. I cannot imagine not hearing it, as it is VERY apparent to me. I still play with the blend when using different guitars, different settings, etc. The amp is VERY interactive.. which is to say, if you turn one knob, you might want to consider turning another, albeit slightly. Little tweaks. Definitely not an amp I would dime and call it a day. I hear people say they hear no difference in the Watts setting either, which really throws me as well.

To any reviewer stating it is brittle or such, you have SOOOO missed out if that completed your opinion, and boxed it back up for return or sale. IMO, this amp is wickedly sensitive to tube choices. I have not gotten to the power tubes (yet!) since I have not felt like having to screw with biasing it. The 6L6's are decent enough for me (I tend toward a 1-2 o'clock setting, favoring the EL's), but I do want to try different EL84's. I initially found the amp shrill and brittle. John Ewing said that my description was "..pretty strong.." Hehehe! Yeah, it was. I was so disappointed. But, he told me to simply pull the chassis, and at least try different pre tubes. Yeah, I owe him. I must have spent a week trying different tubes, and would LOVE to try a few more out. Combining different brand/era 12AX7/ECC83/Etc. had me smiling BIG time.

Lastly, and also as I have stated before (and elsewhere), speaker/cab choice is HUGE. I ended up grabbing some Greenbacks (G12M-25's were fine for me), and the Rebel + my taste loved it. With a nice Tung Sol (new manufacture) in V1, an old Brimar ECC83 (old 70's Brit make) in V2 and the stocker in V3 plus the Greenback'd cab I now have a new go-to amp for recording and jamming.

Never even tried the fx loop since I prefer doing a line out via the speaker out for a send to effects and then a power amp (w/d or w/d/w). I actually love power section "color," and prefer post-power into FX vs post-pre. Anything else goes in front for me.. but there are no set rules

nikki

 

[3 Mile Stone]

They did just come out with a mod to fix the loop/noise issue. It is very difficult to design a loop to work with all effects. So far the result has been great. Here is the thread.......fix toward the end of the thread.

https://www.thegearpage.net/board/showth ... p?t=458596

Awesome Buckeye! I was following that thread but got busy and have not checked in. I'll take a look. How are handling the mod? Send it in? Do it yourself?

 

[3 Mile Stone]

I have not gotten to the power tubes (yet!) since I have not felt like having to screw with biasing it. The 6L6's are decent enough for me (I tend toward a 1-2 o'clock setting, favoring the EL's), but I do want to try different EL84's. I initially found the amp shrill and brittle.

nikki

6V6, not 6L6. As far as I know biasing is not needed when changing out power tubes in the Rebel. Maybe Bruce, Jeff or John will clarify for us. To say it was shrill sounding wwas harsh. I don't hear anything shrill about it even with the srock tubes, which are pretty good.

 

[kingsryche]

I've had my Rebel for three weeks and I think it is a fantastic little amp. I have only played it at home at reasonable volume levels so I can't comment on it's performance in a jam session or gig but the few times I have REALLY cranked it it sounded even better. I am using a couple of pedals with it: DS-1 with distortion at zero to push the preamp a little on higher gain stuff and a DD-3 in the loop for delay.

I have the stock tubes and with the pedals there is some added hum but that is to be expected. Nothing that makes it unusable but with the Gain at 3:00 and the DS-1 it has some pretty good hum going on. A good noise suppressor or a better pedal would alleviate some of that. I have a 1x12 cab with a Greenback and that is a great sounding cab with this head. I want to get another 1x12 or an Egnater 2x12 and that would just KILL.

For a compact, powerful amp I can't think of anything else out there right now that really compares to the Rebel. I wish this amp was out two years ago when I was looking for a lower wattage tube head after getting rid of my Mesa Rectoverb combo (an 85 pound back breaker!)

 

[nikki-k]

I have not gotten to the power tubes (yet!) since I have not felt like having to screw with biasing it. The 6L6's are decent enough for me (I tend toward a 1-2 o'clock setting, favoring the EL's), but I do want to try different EL84's. I initially found the amp shrill and brittle.

nikki

6V6, not 6L6. As far as I know biasing is not needed when changing out power tubes in the Rebel. Maybe Bruce, Jeff or John will clarify for us. To say it was shrill sounding wwas harsh. I don't hear anything shrill about it even with the srock tubes, which are pretty good.

LOL.. oops! Working on my Legacy which they sent back with 6L6's has me juggling tubes in my head

Thx- would love one of the Egnater guys to pop in on that, and the other two posts/questions/threads
nikki

 

[Buckeyedog]

They did just come out with a mod to fix the loop/noise issue. It is very difficult to design a loop to work with all effects. So far the result has been great. Here is the thread.......fix toward the end of the thread.

https://www.thegearpage.net/board/showth ... p?t=458596

Awesome Buckeye! I was following that thread but got busy and have not checked in. I'll take a look. How are handling the mod? Send it in? Do it yourself?

I think you e-mail John for info about the mod. Bruce put the e-mail address in the thread.

 

[3 Mile Stone]

They did just come out with a mod to fix the loop/noise issue. It is very difficult to design a loop to work with all effects. So far the result has been great. Here is the thread.......fix toward the end of the thread.

https://www.thegearpage.net/board/showth ... p?t=458596

Awesome Buckeye! I was following that thread but got busy and have not checked in. I'll take a look. How are handling the mod? Send it in? Do it yourself?

I think you e-mail John for info about the mod. Bruce put the e-mail address in the thread.

Awesome. I'm not going to mess with mine since it seems to be accepting evrything I'm throwing in the loop. Thinking about picking up a Glass Nexus.


Quick story. Went to freinds show last night. Great blues band. I took my Tele down to show. Handed it to him and he said "67?" I said "Yea!" (It's a well reliced 1993 Tokai ). For some reason I threw the Rebel in my truck too. As I'm showing him the Tele, I here the other guitarist cursing. Fender Shot Rod Deville. Dead. I go and get the Rebel. They were freaking out. We pulled the speaker cord from underneath the chasis and hooked up the Rebel to his 4X10 combo. MV dimed, Gain about 2 o'clock. Pretty damn loud band, very pounding drummer. IOther guitarist playing through a loud Super Reverb. The Rebel sounded fantastic. I got up to play three songs. Sounded great and cut through (the Tele helped) the mix. Very nice. It's a winner!!!

 

[roadking]

Many thanks to all of you guys, yesterday I made my decision:
It's gonna be the REBEL 20 with the REBEL 112X cab (probably a second one in the future) !!
Now I only have to find a dealer who ships to Austria and offers support in case of technical hardware problems....

Keep on rockin' !