So if Ed used the neck PAF pickup from his ES335 what magnet did Gibson use in the neck p/u?

[harddriver]

A2, A3, A-5??????????????????????

I know most era correct PAF bridge pickups are using an A-5 magnet these days. But there is the theory that Ed also used the neck pickup from 1961 ES335 or a Les Paul not sure what year that has pics of the neck pickup missing.....so which magnet is most likely to be in a 1961 Gibson neck PAF?

Arcane uses an A-3 in his Tripleclone PAF's.......... I think Seymour Duncan uses an A-5 in the 59 N's just like the bridge 59's and we all know Seymour used an A-2 magnet in the 78 model bridge PAF so would that give credence to the theory Gibson used A-2 A-3 AlNiCo magnets in the neck pickups versus A-5's in the bridge PAFs?

 

[Ben Waylin]

No one will ever know this because Gibson used them indiscriminately.

They had no requirements/specifications for the magnet gauss.. only that it was "a magnetic material".

When they went with the short magnets in 62-63 that's when they settled on Alnico 5.

Gotta remember, Ed knew how to pot a pickup in wax. He knew how to swap magnets/bobbins around between pickups he hacked apart experimenting.

He claimed to have overwound a pickup, but I think this was just more "Ed Lore" because we all know Seymour did that for him.

 

[Rdodson]

Sounds like a high 7s short A5 with a tiny bit of asymmetry (after trying that exact formula myself a la Gaustad). But, that formula sounds anemic when using a Floyd. Sounds killer (like a fat Tele) with the Fender bridge.

This is what caused Ed to go down the overwinding rabbit hole (that and making up for the wireless units' loss of gain in live situations).

 

[Ben Waylin]

Sounds like a high 7s short A5 with a tiny bit of asymmetry (after trying that exact formula myself a la Gaustad). But, that formula sounds anemic when using a Floyd.

Ron if you're referecning the Jalen "FW", it actually has a pretty big offset between coils..

Series Resistance – 15.659 kΩ
Series Inductance – 7.924 H
Slug Coil – 7.138 kΩ
Screw Coil – 8.551 kΩ
Parallel – 3.889 kΩ
Magnet – Rough Cast Short Alnico 5
Lightly potted / no vacuum potting

I recorded this clip yesterday using the Jalen "Fair Warning", Schaller Floyd Rose into a JCM-800.. would not call this "anemic".

 

[Rdodson]

Ron if you're referecning the Jalen "FW", it actually has a pretty big offset between coils..

Series Resistance – 15.659 kΩ
Series Inductance – 7.924 H
Slug Coil – 7.138 kΩ
Screw Coil – 8.551 kΩ
Parallel – 3.889 kΩ
Magnet – Rough Cast Short Alnico 5
Lightly potted / no vacuum potting

I recorded this clip yesterday using the Jalen "Fair Warning", Schaller Floyd Rose into a JCM-800.. would not call this "anemic".

No, that's a different pickup (I have one in my Charvel HRF).

I'm specifically speaking of what was used to record when he had the Fender '61 tremolo on the Frank.

I'd actually love to try the Jalen FW with perhaps the same offset but the hot/screw coil being closer to 7. It would open up a bit, and be less "stuck wah" (a very slight complaint).

 

[Ben Waylin]

I'd actually love to try the Jalen FW with perhaps the same offset but the hot/screw coil being closer to 7. It would open up a bit, and be less "stuck wah" (a very slight complaint).

Call Greg @ Jalen Guitar.

Super cool dude to work with on custom winds !

 

[mentoneman]

by total coincidence i stumbled on using a tom holmes 450 neck pickup (7.8k) in the bridge of my tyler because he didn’t have a 455 bridge pu (8.5k) available at the time. happy accident although i’d love to have his 453 (8.1-8.2k) and a 455 just for fun because i love the clear sound of his pickups and would like to experiment with slightly hotter values using the same tonal character.

after talking pus with holdsworth’s close friend Chip he said allan also used that same 7.8k output on his bridge pu but liked it in a 1 pu gtr to reduce additional magnets pulling the string.
and the fact that he always ran a boost at the top of his chain(mxr micro or tc lbd) helped push the sustain and legato attack factor.

saw on a rig run down that angus also likes that exact 7.8k lower output in his SGs.

but the other ingredients are more critical-




recently i’ve been really impressed by Tone Specific pickups. pure and dynamic like the holmes. here’s what say about the original Gibson ‘57 PAFs they had for sale on ebay:

“This is a vintage 1957 Gibson PAF humbucker set, complete with pots, caps and knobs. It's a part of the Tone Specific collection of vintage pickups used for R&D purposes that we used to create our line of pickups. Check out our other auctions to see other vintage pickups, vintage tubes & the worlds most expressive pickups.

Keep an eye on our auctions, soon we'll be releasing an exact replica of this set, along with a few that will feature real vintage magnets from the 1950's.

1957 was the first year for humbuckers. These are referred to as "pre-sticker" PAFs because they didn't start applying stickers until the following year.

“These are without a doubt the best of all of the vintage humbuckers. Trust us, we know, we've played them all. Don't take our word for it, just ask any prolific dealer of vintage instruments and they'll tell you the same thing. George Gruhn & Rudy Pensa are both big fans of the pre-sticker PAFs.

The neck reads 7.1K and has a 12" lead wire. The bridge reads 7.3K and has about a 6" lead.”

 

[Rdodson]

Call Greg @ Jalen Guitar.

Super cool dude to work with on custom winds !

Oh I have bothered him! He's wonderful. And FAST.

 

[chumbucket]

It sure seemed like Ed favored A2 magnets later on when the pickup manufacturers would send him samples.

 

[Rdodson]

by total coincidence i stumbled on using a tom holmes 450 neck pickup (7.8k) in the bridge of my tyler because he didn’t have a 455 bridge pu (8.5k) available at the time. happy accident although i’d love to have his 453 (8.1-8.2k) and a 455 just for fun because i love the clear sound of his pickups and would like to experiment with slightly hotter values using the same tonal character.

after talking pus with holdsworth’s close friend Chip he said allan also used that same 7.8k output on his bridge pu but liked it in a 1 pu gtr to reduce additional magnets pulling the string.
and the fact that he always ran a boost at the too of his chain(mxr micro or tc lbd) helped push the sustain and legato attack factor.

saw on a rig run down that angus also likes that exact 7.8k lower output in his SGs.

but the other ingredients are more critical-




recently i’ve been really impressed by Tone Specific pickups. pure and dynamic like the holmes. here’s what say about the original Gibson ‘57 PAFs they had for sale on ebay:

“This is a vintage 1957 Gibson PAF humbucker set, complete with pots, caps and knobs. It's a part of the Tone Specific collection of vintage pickups used for R&D purposes that we used to create our line of pickups. Check out our other auctions to see other vintage pickups, vintage tubes & the worlds most expressive pickups.

Keep an eye on our auctions, soon we'll be releasing an exact replica of this set, along with a few that will feature real vintage magnets from the 1950's.

1957 was the first year for humbuckers. These are referred to as "pre-sticker" PAFs because they didn't start applying stickers until the following year.

“These are without a doubt the best of all of the vintage humbuckers. Trust us, we know, we've played them all. Don't take our word for it, just ask any prolific dealer of vintage instruments and they'll tell you the same thing. George Gruhn & Rudy Pensa are both big fans of the pre-sticker PAFs.

The neck reads 7.1K and has a 12" lead wire. The bridge reads 7.3K and has about a 6" lead.”

Absolutely FANTASTIC post and spot-on.

The pickup in the Red Baron (Holdsworth's Red Charvel) was basically an SD '59n with double screw coils with identical winds. Again, that "fat tele" tone that would hold together with gain or could do the clean stuff, or run parallel for the crystalline sound.

I've always adored Ed's sound on "Girl Gone Bad" and that's the V, with the 58 PAFs...those '58s were normally in the high 7s. Gorgeous tone.

 

[Ben Waylin]

i’d love to have his 453 (8.1-8.2k) and a 455 just for fun because i love the clear sound of his pickups and would like to experiment with slightly hotter values using the same tonal character.

After watching Jim Gaustad's video shootout between the Ibanez Super 70 and the DiMarzio SD, I had Jeff @ HighOrder wind me a Super 70 clone.

It does a great job of getting that tone !

8.1kΩ
balanced coils
A8 magnet

 

[Kelly]

He claimed to have overwound a pickup, but I think this was just more "Ed Lore" because we all know Seymour did that for him.

Seymour isn't really a reliable source of information.

 

[harddriver]

Absolutely FANTASTIC post and spot-on.

The pickup in the Red Baron (Holdsworth's Red Charvel) was basically an SD '59n with double screw coils with identical winds. Again, that "fat tele" tone that would hold together with gain or could do the clean stuff, or run parallel for the crystalline sound.

I've always adored Ed's sound on "Girl Gone Bad" and that's the V, with the 58 PAFs...those '58s were normally in the high 7s. Gorgeous tone.

I find that interesting as well since Jim Gaustad feels that WACF was a PAF in the high 7''s resistance-wise 7.65K roughly but he states the bumblebee had hidden tone knob to roll back the brightness of the pickup.


So the concensus is for 1961 ES335 the magnet's could be just about anything A2/A-3/A-5 for the neck pickups?????

And then starting in 1962 they started using short rough cast A-5's in both the bridge and neck PAF's??????

I agree the Fender Standard tremelo has a big effect on the tone versus a Floyd Rose tremelo with certain pickups.

 

[Chubtone]

Seymour isn't really a reliable source of information.

Is there a pickup winder out there who has worked directly with more of the guitar heroes in the world than Seymour?

What is hilarious to me is that every single boutique pickup winder in a basement in Arkansas or his mom's garage in Minnesota are the only guys in the whole world who have figured out the correct recipe for duplicating old PAF's or strat pickups or whatever. They are the only ones who have an old pickup winding machine from Gibson or have determined the correct metallurgy. You have to ask yourself, who worked with more of the stars back in their heyday than Seymour or Larry DiMarzio? These guys were in New York (Larry) and London/Los Angeles (Seymour) where all the stars were and were ripping apart guitars and pickups back when '59 Les Pauls and 60's strats were just used guitars. Almost every one of my favorite tone guys have worked directly with Seymour, not some obscure pickup winder in Reno. How many real PAF's did all these Johnny Come Lately boutique pickup guys ever play through let alone rip apart? Seymour and DiMarzio were ripping them apart when they were a dime a dozen.

I'm just saying, the hype and smoke and mirrors in the boutique pickup winding world when it comes to who makes the most vintage correct pickups is downright laughable.

 

[Ben Waylin]

the hype and smoke and mirrors in the boutique pickup winding world when it comes to who makes the most vintage correct pickups is downright laughable.

 

[Kelly]

Is there a pickup winder out there who has worked directly with more of the guitar heroes in the world than Seymour?

What is hilarious to me is that every single boutique pickup winder in a basement in Arkansas or his mom's garage in Minnesota are the only guys in the whole world who have figured out the correct recipe for duplicating old PAF's or strat pickups or whatever. They are the only ones who have an old pickup winding machine from Gibson or have determined the correct metallurgy. You have to ask yourself, who worked with more of the stars back in their heyday than Seymour or Larry DiMarzio? These guys were in New York (Larry) and London/Los Angeles (Seymour) where all the stars were and were ripping apart guitars and pickups back when '59 Les Pauls and 60's strats were just used guitars. Almost every one of my favorite tone guys have worked directly with Seymour, not some obscure pickup winder in Reno. How many real PAF's did all these Johnny Come Lately boutique pickup guys ever play through let alone rip apart? Seymour and DiMarzio were ripping them apart when they were a dime a dozen.

I'm just saying, the hype and smoke and mirrors in the boutique pickup winding world when it comes to who makes the most vintage correct pickups is downright laughable.

Mr Duncan's stories about what he did for EVH have changed over the years, and he's been sued or warned numerous times to stop selling "signature" pickups. He was also accused of stealing other peoples' designs in years past.

 

[mentoneman]

Is there a pickup winder out there who has worked directly with more of the guitar heroes in the world than Seymour?

What is hilarious to me is that every single boutique pickup winder in a basement in Arkansas or his mom's garage in Minnesota are the only guys in the whole world who have figured out the correct recipe for duplicating old PAF's or strat pickups or whatever. They are the only ones who have an old pickup winding machine from Gibson or have determined the correct metallurgy. You have to ask yourself, who worked with more of the stars back in their heyday than Seymour or Larry DiMarzio? These guys were in New York (Larry) and London/Los Angeles (Seymour) where all the stars were and were ripping apart guitars and pickups back when '59 Les Pauls and 60's strats were just used guitars. Almost every one of my favorite tone guys have worked directly with Seymour, not some obscure pickup winder in Reno. How many real PAF's did all these Johnny Come Lately boutique pickup guys ever play through let alone rip apart? Seymour and DiMarzio were ripping them apart when they were a dime a dozen.

I'm just saying, the hype and smoke and mirrors in the boutique pickup winding world when it comes to who makes the most vintage correct pickups is downright laughable.

What up Lumberjack!
i know you’ve been through your share bro bro…

here’s one story i’m sticking to. i went to a plexi shootout a few years ago and we got busy with a stack of vintage amps and axes that’d make rigtalk’s collective chin quiver-
12000 series superlead, super 100 jtm 45/100, superbass, metal panel 50s, bogner and mojave modded plexis…all through period correct cabs and speakers.



(and i’ll have you know my peacemaker easily stood toe to toe with these legends!)

after a few hours of elite tone sausage festival homoing, one guy pulls out his flying V and plugs into a ‘72 50 watt plexi and instantly has my attention.

“what pickup is in that thing?”

“a holmes 455..”

crazy that of the 20+ guitars and 12 or so amps we heard, the pickup was what caught my ear!

 

[Greazygeo]

Is there a pickup winder out there who has worked directly with more of the guitar heroes in the world than Seymour?

What is hilarious to me is that every single boutique pickup winder in a basement in Arkansas or his mom's garage in Minnesota are the only guys in the whole world who have figured out the correct recipe for duplicating old PAF's or strat pickups or whatever. They are the only ones who have an old pickup winding machine from Gibson or have determined the correct metallurgy. You have to ask yourself, who worked with more of the stars back in their heyday than Seymour or Larry DiMarzio? These guys were in New York (Larry) and London/Los Angeles (Seymour) where all the stars were and were ripping apart guitars and pickups back when '59 Les Pauls and 60's strats were just used guitars. Almost every one of my favorite tone guys have worked directly with Seymour, not some obscure pickup winder in Reno. How many real PAF's did all these Johnny Come Lately boutique pickup guys ever play through let alone rip apart? Seymour and DiMarzio were ripping them apart when they were a dime a dozen.

I'm just saying, the hype and smoke and mirrors in the boutique pickup winding world when it comes to who makes the most vintage correct pickups is downright laughable.

My thoughts exactly. Duncans always work for me. The others are just playing catch up…I will never understand this VH thing…blech.

 

[Ben Waylin]

The 455 uses a full-strength A2 mag and measures between 8.1 ~ 8.3kΩ DC resistance.

5500 turns of 42AWG wire.

Around $600 on reverb, when they pop up for sale.

 

[Rdodson]

Is there a pickup winder out there who has worked directly with more of the guitar heroes in the world than Seymour?

What is hilarious to me is that every single boutique pickup winder in a basement in Arkansas or his mom's garage in Minnesota are the only guys in the whole world who have figured out the correct recipe for duplicating old PAF's or strat pickups or whatever. They are the only ones who have an old pickup winding machine from Gibson or have determined the correct metallurgy. You have to ask yourself, who worked with more of the stars back in their heyday than Seymour or Larry DiMarzio? These guys were in New York (Larry) and London/Los Angeles (Seymour) where all the stars were and were ripping apart guitars and pickups back when '59 Les Pauls and 60's strats were just used guitars. Almost every one of my favorite tone guys have worked directly with Seymour, not some obscure pickup winder in Reno. How many real PAF's did all these Johnny Come Lately boutique pickup guys ever play through let alone rip apart? Seymour and DiMarzio were ripping them apart when they were a dime a dozen.

I'm just saying, the hype and smoke and mirrors in the boutique pickup winding world when it comes to who makes the most vintage correct pickups is downright laughable.

Yeah; Steve Blucher is honestly the most knowledgeable guy I’ve talked to.