Tone Master Pro (and modelers etc in general)

[Rdodson]

I’ve been messing around with the Tone Master Pro lately simply because I know that I’m going to get asked to sit in at some point and it’s going to be a basically silent stage environment. I got the excellent Fender 12 inch full range thing, and that’s very cool. But I just can’t get these models to sound like my amp sitting next to it. Do any of you who have gone down this route have any reference YouTube videos or tutorials in helping dial in some of this? I mean, they are cool jam tones, or practice tones. But they don’t sound real.

Am I spoiled by my Metroplex Mark II and my Bogner, and my cabs full of Scumbacks? Of course I am. But I still think I can get closer.

 

[angelspade]

I have said this here several times. I really enjoy my Helix, the options are really fun and the convenience factor is outstanding. It does sound "similar" to the amps it is attempting to mimic. It's basically adequate in that regard. But it doesn't "feel" the same as a tube amp in the room. I wish I could describe it more accurately, but I can't. For me, when it comes to modelers: the math is all there, but the magic just isn't.

 

[Shask]

What you are describing is "amp in the room" vs "recorded amp" tones. Google that, and you will be able to read for days.


Basically, the issue is when you use cab IR modeling, you are going to get the sound of the amp being recorded, not what the amp sounds like in the room next to you.

 

[Rdodson]

Yeah, I get it. Thanks for the reminders.

 

[SFW]

When I first made the jump to digital, it took a bit to wrap my head around the "miced up" amp tone vs the amp in the room tone. You have to keep in mind that you are dialing in a sound that will directly translate to what comes out of the mains. The high and low cut are your best friends. It will sound dull on its own, but in the context of a band mix, it will work great.

 

[Racerxrated]

When I first made the jump to digital, it took a bit to wrap my head around the "miced up" amp tone vs the amp in the room tone. You have to keep in mind that you are dialing in a sound that will directly translate to what comes out of the mains. The high and low cut are your best friends. It will sound dull on its own, but in the context of a band mix, it will work great.

This.

Only had an AX8 briefly long ago; was very happy with the PA tone. One stage, not so much. Not bad but obviously fake, digital, etc. I'll still add a modeler again at some point.

 

[scottosan]

They’re not meant to simulate an in room amp, only recorded and mic’s can simulation. To your point though, I never bonded with my Axefx

 

[SteveGlitch]

I’ve been messing around with the Tone Master Pro lately simply because I know that I’m going to get asked to sit in at some point and it’s going to be a basically silent stage environment.

Do you play at a church? Bigger/High tech churches have adopted the silent, cleaner looking stage. Christian churches have mastered the sound of believable tube tones from amp sim/cab sims.

I got the excellent Fender 12 inch full range thing, and that’s very cool. But I just can’t get these models to sound like my amp sitting next to it. Do any of you who have gone down this route have any reference YouTube videos or tutorials in helping dial in some of this? I mean, they are cool jam tones, or practice tones. But they don’t sound real.

I've been wanting that FR12! Maybe I'll get one soon

My local guitar has a Tone Pro hooked up to an FR12 and it sounds pretty good - depending on the guitar.

Am I spoiled by my Metroplex Mark II and my Bogner, and my cabs full of Scumbacks? Of course I am. But I still think I can get closer.

You may have to do some custom IR's yourself.

I used the Helix/Pod Go for a goof bit but found that they ultimately lacked in quality and in some way they also caused the feel of the guitar to be choked which changed my playing a little . I went back to UAFX pedals (Ruby and Dream) and have gotten better tones on these UAFX pedals than the actual tube amps (regardless of how they are mic'd and EQ'd.

 

[Rdodson]

I have played only a couple of times at my church, a very conservative old-school Presbyterian church where’d I’d only play my Martin.

In my younger days I played at church and was part of the Metro Band that released a couple of records.

 

[John4021]

I have played only a couple of times at my church, a very conservative old-school Presbyterian church

....then you brought out the Metroplex and Charvel Custom Shop and scared the shit out of Satan.

"Saint Rod "

 

[BlueParfait]

But I just can’t get these models to sound like my amp sitting next to it.

The only time I ever got there was to plug a Kemper into a poweramp and then into a real cab

Having a real cab is what's key to getting a modeler to sound like a real amp. You see tons of touring pros and legends who were old school tube players switch to modelers? Yeah they're still using real cabs too.

Closest FRFR I got was the Laney 112. I suspect the Friedman would work better.

But yeah real cabs + poweramp is IMO the way to go

 

[SteveGlitch]

....then you brought out the Metroplex and Charvel Custom Shop and scared the shit out of Satan.

"Saint Rod "

I played this at a large scale church recently, I'm not sure how they felt about it

 

[DanTravis62]

The only time I ever got there was to plug a Kemper into a poweramp and then into a real cab

Same, this is what I do in my cover band. Kemper XLRs to house, small rocktron 50x2 stereo power amp, plus a 1x12 as sort of my personal "stage monitor" so it doesn't give me the "uncanny valley" or "not sounding real" tone.

Apparently my IRs sound great with the house and in everyone elses monitors, but I can't listen to it.

I think this is just one of the trade-offs of modeling in general.

I refuse gigs with the silent stage requirement specifically because it's too offputting to me; but I've never had complaints with my 1x12 and power amp combo with the kemper. It's not ridiculously loud or anything, but enough to get me close to a "real" guitar sound, if that makes sense.

 

[Rdodson]

....then you brought out the Metroplex and Charvel Custom Shop and scared the shit out of Satan.

"Saint Rod "

This made me laugh!

I would have loved to play my HRF at my old Metro Band gigs. We got anywhere from 3-7k people at those. But I was playing a Musicman EVH through a VHT Pitbull back then.

 

[Rdodson]

Same, this is what I do in my cover band. Kemper XLRs to house, small rocktron 50x2 stereo power amp, plus a 1x12 as sort of my personal "stage monitor" so it doesn't give me the "uncanny valley" or "not sounding real" tone.

Apparently my IRs sound great with the house and in everyone elses monitors, but I can't listen to it.

I think this is just one of the trade-offs of modeling in general.

I refuse gigs with the silent stage requirement specifically because it's too offputting to me; but I've never had complaints with my 1x12 and power amp combo with the kemper. It's not ridiculously loud or anything, but enough to get me close to a "real" guitar sound, if that makes sense.

So can you send the IR’s to the XLR outs and send pre-cab/IR sounds to the power amp to go to your cabs?

 

[DanTravis62]

So can you send the IR’s to the XLR outs and send pre-cab/IR sounds to the power amp to go to your cabs?

I'm not sure if that's possible or not, maybe? I have my IR's loaded on our board. Even if I didn't, I could use a third party IR loader of some type if I need to. Two notes CAB, Boss IR, etc.

I would deep dive the Kemper settings to find out before I grabbed an extra piece of gear, but either way it wouldnt be a huge hassle.

I am not sure about the tone master pro (IE whether you have that functionality or not) but it shouldn't be too hard to work something like that out with it as well.

The only problem I could see is if you can't turn the IR off at all? I dont know, I've never tried the tone master pro.

 

[Rising Farce]

So can you send the IR’s to the XLR outs and send pre-cab/IR sounds to the power amp to go to your cabs?

The Kemper Power Head I owned had a "Disable IR to monitor out" setting that facilitated this. Not sure about the regular head or rack unit.

 

[romanianreaper]

I tried to enjoy modelling and began my journey back around 2012. The Fractal was great, loved LINE 6 back in the day and so many other options.

I don't know what it is but there is a tone or feel that always falls short between the tube/solid state world and modelling. I wish.thosr light amps and cabs sounded so close but just is missing a certain feel.

The modelling with a real power amp and cab seemed to make things sound better but I could never get where I wanted to be.

 

[Spaceboy]

a modeler will never sound like your amp side by side. if you mic your amp in another room and play it through the same playback system, that’s closer to the modeler experience. it has its place and a great tool, but if you’re a dude who gets his jollies standing in front of the amp, and nothing else will do, then bothering with modelers is a losing battle. at this point i have owned and like almost all the major modelers, but not tone master. hell at home i play plugins 90% of the time anymore. but im a guy who kept my cabs miked in another room anyway, so it was a natural switch to modeling.

 

[romanianreaper]

a modeler will never sound like your amp side by side. if you mic your amp in another room and play it through the same playback system, that’s closer to the modeler experience. it has its place and a great tool, but if you’re a dude who gets his jollies standing in front of the amp, and nothing else will do, then bothering with modelers is a losing battle. at this point i have owned and like almost all the major modelers, but not tone master. hell at home i play plugins 90% of the time anymore. but im a guy who kept my cabs miked in another room anyway, so it was a natural switch to modeling.

It is like hearing a sound and then hearing it in surround sound. Just opens up. It is not bad, just not as multidimensional.