Torpedo Live sound too compressed?

[evilhomer]

So here's a bit of a diffuse one that's rather difficult to explain in a way that makes sense, but I'll do my best. For one reason or another (that could also be part imaginary, not ruling that one out) I find that no matter how I tweak sounds, change cabs, mics, mic placement etc, I'm never able to get that "airy" sound that's harmonically very rich and full when the guitar sound isn't entirely clean. To my ears, it gets a bit flat, dull (for lack of a better word), very compressed and has a bit of an artificial flavor too it. Here's an example, hopefully other people can hear what I'm referring to:

Dr Z Maz 18 jr NR w Torpedo Live using Voice 65 and the SM57 mic dead centered and 30% out from cab:
https://soundcloud.com/evil-homer/test

Dr Z Maz 18 jr NR w SM57 real micing
Interestingly enough I noticed a similar behavior in a song I recorded using real micing (SM57), which highlights the problem of my being absolutely shit at micing https://soundcloud.com/evil-homer/face- ... the-gravel

As an example of what the amp really sounds like in real life, this is as close as I could find, just to make my point:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7yBNa8MTSAA

Now, it's not exactly the same since they're different amps (Z Wreck in the clip vs Z Maz 18, plus there seems to be a lot of room-micing in that mix) but they're quite similar and the sound I hear has that same characteristics of being on the verge of breakup, very touch sensitive, lots of air and very little compression going on. I'm not looking to re-create that exactly since that'd probably be impossible using just one mic, it's just to give you an idea of what I'm hearing.

Settings on the Z Maz 18 when recording the test-clip are:
Volume: about 13 o'clock, Treble: around 9 o'clock, Middle: 10 o'clock, Bass: 16 o'clock, Cut: Maxed, Master: 9:30 o'clock. Guitar was inserted into the Hi input and there's an Eventide Timefactor in the loop.

The Z Maz 18 is connected from the 8 ohm output to the Torpedo Live with a Lava speaker cable, and then onward to a Focusrite Saffire 14 soundcard via SPDIF cable, then straight into Cubase. No eq-ing going on at any stage. Settings in Torpedo Live and also the Focusrite control center is 96 kHz (I get the same behavior on other sample rates too and also via analog cable). Input and output levels look fine to me, solidly between -6db and -12db as far as I can tell. Reference listening when adjusting sound and recording was a pair of Acoustic Energy 22 studio monitors. Exported in .wav format and then uploaded to Soundcloud.


Anyone else had a similar experience with this and figured out a way around it? I should probably point out that I'm not thinking there's anything wrong with the unit itself, but rather that I'm not using it right or at least could do a better job at it. I get the same experience when using headphones directly in the Torpedo Live. And like I mentioned, I'm not looking to exactly replicate the sound I hear in the room but in my mind it should be possible getting a more natural, lively, "airey" and less compressed sound than what I'm achieving so far. The Z Maz 18 does tend to have a fair bit of natural compression going on as part of its' design but I'm getting the same thing happening with my CAA OD100 as well.

Sorry about a very long-winded post, all input and help highly appreciated!

 

[slash57]

30% out from the cab sounds like a lot to me, could be the reason your sound is duller than the other example.
About the dynamics, no idea, can't really help.

 

[evilhomer]

Thanks for the input, indeed it could be. I seemed to get a bit less of the compression thing going on when moving the mic back so just kinda stuck with that.

 

[djd100]

Are you sure you have the LIVE's tube power amp sims off (they'll darken the tone and create compression)?

You also have the amp's cut maxed, though I'm assuming you mean no cut, correct?

You also have the master volume low which can effect tone etc? The LIVE's load is different from a speaker's, you might try lowering the preamp gain some which will let the bright cap work more, and raise the master some?

You can't compare with Brad's video's tone as he's using different mic(s) in a different room at minimum, and you have no idea what EQ was applied to Brad's rig either, and what pedals he might have behind the amps etc (he typically uses pedals)?

Lastly, the LIVE has a quality EQ on board, use it to brighten up your tone if need be.

 

[evilhomer]

Thanks for your reply,

Yes, they're turned off.

The Cut function on this amp is an overall tone/presence type control. Off is basically very mellow and dimed is basically maximum presence and chime.

I've played around with various combinations of the volume and master, having both around 11 or 12-ish among others and while it may have made a difference, it wasn't enough. But maybe that's what I need to do, play around with those controls some more.

The video was more to give an impression of what I'm actually hearing in the room, or as close as possible anyway, not that I'm looking to re-create that sound exactly since that'd be a tall order with only one mic anyway. I've played around with the eq quite a bit and while it certainly helps, I feel I really should be getting much closer to "the tone" and using eq to fine-tune the last little bit. While it certainly adds more highs and whatnot, the underlying problem is still there and very audible to my ears.

As a sidenote, yesterday I went to a guitar show here in Gothenburg and had a word with a reseller of the Torpedo Live about it and also tried their demo-setup they had there which was vastly different from my own in terms of amp and guitar, so again, not sure how valuable that comparison is. But at any rate, we dialled in a similar tone on the amp and I could not hear the same "problem" on that setup. Which leads me to believe I'm (hopefully) doing something really wrong when tweaking sound or that there may be something wrong with the hardware. Unfortunately I couldn't go get my amp and test it there and then to find out for sure.

 

[djd100]

You are welcome...

If you're not too far from Gothenburg perhaps you should take your amp there to try with the different LIVE hardware (beautiful part of the world Sweden is!)?

I'm assuming you're using a quality non-shielded speaker cable between the amp and LIVE, and that you're sure it's not the acoustics in your home studio or your home studio monitors etc? Have you tried quality headphones?

Is the tone too dark because of an over abundance of low-end, or just not enough high-end along with a tight low-end?

Remember that "in the room" and mic'd/DI'd through reference monitors are two totally seperate things, and they'll never sound identical (no mic or mics hears the same as the human ears/brain/monitors, plus the differences in room tone/early reflections etc).

In my experience I sometimes have to touch the EQ a little, a couple of db here and there at times, but typically no more than that (remembering that it's usually more useful to cut offending freqs rather than boosting all the non-offending freqs if looking for a natural sound etc).

Have you tried the Voice 30, VoiceModrn, and Prime A and B? These are all Celetin Blue/Silver type speakers. Also try the Condenser mics as they're generally brighter than dynamics like the SM57. I've used all of these without problem with my Vox AC30TB and Matchless Chieftain preamps.

Also, you should consider making an IR of your physical setup if you're keen on matching it perfectly too.

Good luck!

Thanks for your reply,

Yes, they're turned off.

The Cut function on this amp is an overall tone/presence type control. Off is basically very mellow and dimed is basically maximum presence and chime.

I've played around with various combinations of the volume and master, having both around 11 or 12-ish among others and while it may have made a difference, it wasn't enough. But maybe that's what I need to do, play around with those controls some more.

The video was more to give an impression of what I'm actually hearing in the room, or as close as possible anyway, not that I'm looking to re-create that sound exactly since that'd be a tall order with only one mic anyway. I've played around with the eq quite a bit and while it certainly helps, I feel I really should be getting much closer to "the tone" and using eq to fine-tune the last little bit. While it certainly adds more highs and whatnot, the underlying problem is still there and very audible to my ears.

As a sidenote, yesterday I went to a guitar show here in Gothenburg and had a word with a reseller of the Torpedo Live about it and also tried their demo-setup they had there which was vastly different from my own in terms of amp and guitar, so again, not sure how valuable that comparison is. But at any rate, we dialled in a similar tone on the amp and I could not hear the same "problem" on that setup. Which leads me to believe I'm (hopefully) doing something really wrong when tweaking sound or that there may be something wrong with the hardware. Unfortunately I couldn't go get my amp and test it there and then to find out for sure.

 

[evilhomer]

Yep, been through the lot of them. The speaker cable is from Lava and is very high quality, though of course nothing is faultless. Borrowed a pair of better headphones today and it sure does sound much more clear there than through the monitors so while these are supposedly decent enough cables I'll do an overhaul of them. And, rather interestingly, it seems that the software for the Focusrite card on Mac has a nack for changing back the sync source from SPDIF to Internal. Changing that back to SPDIF and thus making the soundcard slave does seem to make a noticeable difference so between that and cabling I'm hopefully onto something!

 

[djd100]

Montitors and their physical location within the listening space is critical. If using quality near-field monitors (if not then...???), they should be at minimum three feet away from the nearest wall/boundry, plus the room should at minimum be treated to stop the first reflections to the listening area (typically front and back walls/boundries, plus roughly the point half-way between the monitors and the listening position on the both side and ceiling walls/boundries).

Digital clock source will not cause your tone problem, rather it would cause clicks and pops and/or playback speed issues etc.

Also, remember the Fletcher/Munson curves, and note that you'd need to compare your amp/cab to the LIVE/Monitored versions at the same SPL (Sound Pressure Level).

Good luck...

Yep, been through the lot of them. The speaker cable is from Lava and is very high quality, though of course nothing is faultless. Borrowed a pair of better headphones today and it sure does sound much more clear there than through the monitors so while these are supposedly decent enough cables I'll do an overhaul of them. And, rather interestingly, it seems that the software for the Focusrite card on Mac has a nack for changing back the sync source from SPDIF to Internal. Changing that back to SPDIF and thus making the soundcard slave does seem to make a noticeable difference so between that and cabling I'm hopefully onto something!

 

[djd100]

I'll also mention that if you're skilled at mic'ing real guitar cabs, the ReWirez collection of IR's gives you everything that would ever be needed (they work well with Two Notes gear).

http://www.redwirez.com/