Trouble finding my sound with Torpedo C.A.B.

[janosch]

Hey there.
I realize that this may be the wrong thread, but I am having trouble with finding "my sound", and I thought the IR people might be of help. If I am way off subject, then I apologize.
So…I own the CAB and use it from the send of my tube amp using the power amp sims and into an Atomic CLR active.
I know that getting the "amp in the room" sound is a real challenge, but for my use the closer I can get, the better.
I´ve gone through almost all of the IR´s in the CAB as well as the Goldfinger one from La Botique and I cannot for the world of me get a working sound without adjusting the EQ for a severe frown curve. Every preset is super harsh and scooped when I a/b against my cabinet without EQ´ing the &%#€ out of them.
I have the 320Hz at 4dB, the 800Hz at 8db and the 2KHz at 4dB. Depending on how I set the center parameter, I also dip the 6KHz a whopping -10 to -15dB.

Is it just me and my stupid idea of how a guitar should sound or is there room for improvement in future IR´s?
I am in no way bashing the product - it sounds/feels great and my bandmates are happy, but I am just wondering why I need such a drastic EQ to get things in the ballpark.
I actually did a capture myself and while it came out so-so, it clearly sounded way more in-your-face and there was no harshness, so I guess it can be done - it´s just that most of the presets have this "metal" sound to them and he way I hear it, the differences between them are subtle. The peaks and dips in the midrange region change a bit, but the overall "curve" of them is pretty similar.
If the Ownhammer ones can be described as "scooped/thin" then do you have a suggestion to where I should look for some different IR´s?
I could stay where I am with my weird EQ settings, but since I boost and cut so much, it is starting to sound a bit fake, because I cannot do a smooth curve (like you would be able to in the 31-band EQ from the BlendIR). All I have is the 5 frequencies and whatever is in between those is not boosted, making a big dip in the curve.

Thanks to Two-notes for a great product and again, I apologize if I have stolen the thread.
Cheers,
Kristian

 

[guillaume_pille]

Hi Janosh,

I took the liberty to create a new topic with your post.

May I ask you what you plug to the C.A.B.? A preamp, pedals?

Did you try connecting it to your soundcard and using WOS III that offers more options?

you have thousands of possibilities (cabinets, microphones, mike position) and maybe the issue is the source your using; The cabinet and miking is an important part of the process, but not 100%

 

[janosch]

Hi Guillaume
I come out of the send of my amp´s fx loop, into timebased effects (rotary, delay) and then into the CAB.
I have no soundcard/daw/studio setup, so I can only audition by loading into the CAB and tweak from there. I am only using this to be able to plug directly into the house P.A. and have an active monitor as my "cabinet". It has so many benefits for live playing, and our singer is no longer angry with me. -Gotta keep the lead singers happy.
So basically, it should mimic my amp and the speakers in it (it is a combo) but in a more live-environment friendly way.

I have done hours of a/b testing the above setup vs. the amp on its own and that is why I posted here (thank you for moving the subject, btw).
It is not that it doesn´t sound good - I just wonder why I need to EQ so much to have it sounding close to my amp?
After all, the preamp is exactly the same. I just bypass the power amp and speakers and use the CAB/CLR instead.
I know that an IR of a 4x12 with V30´s will never sound like my open back combo with 2 Emi Legends in it, but on the other hand my combo is still just a combo with guitar speakers in it?
I will definitely keep trying out different IR´s and I am in no way getting rid of the CAB, but I thought I would ask the experts on this. You know, there might be a trick that I don´t know of or a really weird and honky IR that only works on my ears…
Thanks for the great support!
Kris

 

[guillaume_pille]

Of course you can continue tweaking (and forget about the presets, dig in the parameters), but maybe a solution would be to do a capture of your setup, in various position of one or several microphones.

http://www.two-notes.com/en/software/torpedo-blendir/

You could try using the FX return to send the signal from the soundcard.

 

[bshaw92]

Kris,

The CLR will provide a more full spectrum sound since it is FRFR. The cabinet produces the limited frequency a guitar speaker covers. Can you mic the cabinet so you compare apples to apples (mic'd cab versus a simulated mic/cabinet setup)? If you cannot then eq' bass prominent removing the highs covered by the FRFR is the only option. If you are running it to FOH then what you are now hearing is what the audience has been hearing if you were formerly using a mic'd setup. The system you described now is actually better from the perspective that you can adjust using your CLR so you know exactly what the audience will hear. It might just be getting used to the different sounds from the CLR versus the cabinet as it takes getting adjusted to it when you've been accustomed to an amp/cabinet reference. You might try listening to some music/guitar via your CLR and playing through it with your setup as comparison so you have a reference that way as well. Just some ideas....

 

[janosch]

Hi guys
Thanks for the replies. I did do some in-depth tweaking and I actually also did a capture myself, using the return of the loop. I have no soundcard, so I teamed up with our bass player and did one. It actually worked, but the sound was a bit off. It sounded like I had to do a few to get the mic placement right and that would require me to purchase my own mic and preamp, so I never did another.
The experince DID tell me, that capturing a cabinet´s sound actually works. It sounded like my cab, just not in a pretty and cool way. More like a "can you move the mic back? I think it fell out of the stand" kinda way.

Bshaw92, I realize that a FRFR is way different, but I´ve listened to my combo mic´ed up for years. I know the sound and although it has often sounded a bit shrill in the P.A., it has never been scooped (at least not as far as I remember).
Also, I do agree on what you say about the CLR/CAB setup. It is so nice to be able to hear what the audience is hearing.
It´s not that I have to get used to the CLR sound - that is already sounding great. The issue is that to GET it to sound that way, I have to turn certain parameters way up or down, to the point where I feel something is way off. Having the 5-band EQ is a life saver, but since it is limited to 5 bands, boosting so much in one of them makes things sound slightly artificial because the surrounding freq´s do not follow. (At least not in the way the 31-band can be set for a smooth curve).
Example:
Say you want to EQ a singers mic. He/she sings and you see yourself turning the "high" on the mixer channel to +15dB, and you still think it is sounding a bit muffled…then you find out that all the tweeters are shot in the P.A. speakers. Then you think "aaahhh, that´s why I had to boost the highs so much".

I can get a working sound, but only if I kill all highs and boost the crap out of the midrange. I also set the mic way off center. The band members like the sound, too, so I don´t feel like I need to adjust or anything.
That´s the best part of having the CAB and a good FRFR box. I have not felt like I needed to "get used" to it. The only thing that´s bugging me is that I am boosting/cutting so severely using the stock IR´s.

Enough of me for now. I really appreciate the help so thank you for taking the time. Happy tweaking/playing and thanks for the update TN! Now off for some IR hunting...
Kris

 

[RockmanCentralBob]

I had similar problems when I first got started (actually, I've had them for YEARS using other gear as well).
It turned out that my monitors were FAR from producing a flat response.
So no matter what I played through them, it wasn't anything near what the sound SHOULD be sounding like.
I ended up using a Behringer Ultracurve to analyze the response of my speakers, and with the push of a few buttons was able to create an EQ curve that made them produce a flat response.
Now, when I play my amp through IR's I created from my cabs through my monitors, it sounds almost exactly like I was playing through those cabs!!

 

[djd100]

Another possibility is making sure you have the Tube Power Amp Sim's Presence control up high to start (like 80% plus typically excepting the 6L6's, and that's somewhat counter-intuitive but it helps a lot IMO), and set Depth to suit.

I can say that through quality studio monitors I've no such problems (which is how I use my CAB's Cab Sims, and I typically turn the Cab Sims off and use a real guitar cab live, so I haven't tried it with various stage quality FRFR speakers).

I can say the couple of times I've tried moderately priced FRFR rigs from EV and Mackie they werew no way near flat, and did not work well for guitar with my CAB or Axe FX Ultra providing Cab Sims.

 

[Jay Mitchell]

It turned out that my monitors were FAR from producing a flat response.

That is not an issue with CLRs.

I ended up using a Behringer Ultracurve to analyze the response of my speakers, and with the push of a few buttons was able to create an EQ curve that made them produce a flat response.

That process has many pitfalls. Unless you understand and address them - the instructions in the manual don't cover them - your results will be hit-or-miss. From your post, it appears you were fortunate. Others will be less so. Additionally, many of the most serious response issues with monitors cannot be addressed with equalization.