Unpopular opinion - high end amps aren't comparatively that expensive

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ZEN Amps

ZEN Amps

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Most of us here have spent pretty decent money on amps, but talking to a non-musician friend recently he made an interesting comment.

He pointed at a DSL and asked what it's worth (it was being used to prop a door open). I said about a grand. They're really common, basically a Toyota of amps. Then he asked what's the Bugatti - I pointed out the Wizards. I mentioned they were handmade by one of the best in the world, parts this, handmade that, AC-DC blah blah, and a very high proportion of players would never even get to play one at 5k.

He said that's no bad, think about the difference between those two cars - could be over 100 times the cost, not 5.

Got me thinking, is 4-6k for the top shelf really a lot of money in the scheme of things? Custom Shop Gibsons and even Fenders these days can be over 10k, and don't get me started on studio gear. 8k for a compressor, or 10k for a mic is pretty commonplace in the high end.

I realise every product category is unique, and the car analogy is obviously flawed, but is 3.5k for a Mesa MkVII or 4k for a Soldano actually pretty good value?

I say yes, what say you?
 
I totally agree. The way I look at it is that in my main field of classical guitar I'd need between $40-60,000 US dollars to get a classical guitar equivalent of a Wizard and the very best classicals I've tried were well in the 6 figures. The best violins are millions, if not in the 8 figures. Back in 2009 my music teacher said an entry level harpsichord costs $10K! Electric guitar gear really isn't bad at all vs classical stuff
 
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I think about this all the time myself, but I come at it another way. If I were a gigging or touring player, or when I have a friend who wants to learn to play and I recommend them an amp, why spend anything more than you have to? I picked up a Peavey XXX pretty recently for $325 and I'd argue that your average audience would never tell the difference between that and a $5k amp, especially if I used an EQ in the loop or a few effects pedals. You could buy that amp as a brand new player right now, and still be using it 10+ years from now casually, or even on stage with thousands in the audience, and as long as you don't get bored of the tone, it could handle anything. Not just the XXX of course, lots of amps in the budget tube category could do that.

There's more to an amp than just the component cost, but even if you factor in build/repair/qa/etc labor the price of a $5k amp is absurd considering the cost to produce them alone. The "X Factor" in my mind is the R&D cost. Guitar players are a picky bunch and I personally am in the camp that amps are so complex and nuanced that I'd rather have 50 amps and 1 guitar than the other way around, so I understand why these boutique makers spend so much time tuning and tweaking circuits. That's what makes expensive amps so expensive, the time spent perfecting that (hopefully) groundbreaking circuit design, and that's also why some of this stuff is considered such a priority to protect by amp designers.

To pick on ENGL a little, I have a Savage Mk1 and a partial/inaccurate schematic, and the PCB doesn't even have the components labeled. So ex. they couldn't even tell me over the phone to check a specific component by name (ex. "R12" or "C31"), it has to go back to an ENGL repair shop where I assume they have some visual diagrams to refer to, or maybe they just fly by the seat of their pants and hope every repair job is a simple "find broken/exploded component and replace with same value" type repair. Anything more complicated than that outside of warranty is just tough luck.

Vintage amps are another story altogether, and I have worries about certain unique amps/ideas/etc becoming lost to time. Stuff that is no longer being made or requires hobby/one-off builds is arguably more deserving of high prices to me. That's probably outside the scope of this discussion, and sorry to pick on ENGL again, but I have an ENGL E101. That thing uses some really odd archaic 80s era digital tech in it. If ENGL ever closed up shop, and they have never publically published any repair/design docs on it, and something went wrong that amp would be forever broken and no one would ever know what it sounded like again. An amp like that doesn't have the following to keep repair info around (ex. like the ADA MP-1 community has put out, after ADA closed up MP-1's are still well documented and repairable). There's not an easy solution of course, the most valuable part of an amp is the R&D time spent on it and amp builders have a right to protect that investment. I think it would be nice if they would release the design/repair docs after X number of years on the market, or at least when something gets discontinued.
 
It’s all relative to the product’s market and who the customer base is. Considering the state of affairs for most working, non-classical musicians I would say yes, the top shelf is a ridiculous amount of money. But a guy who drives a Bugatti is never even looking at a Chevy Malibu, but to a blue collar worker, a highest trim Malibu is going to seem pretty sweet. But considering a regular working class person isn’t probably going to pay for a highest trim Malibu, as even that is expensive.
When the tonal difference for $3000 more is often maybe 5%, it’s not a reasonable trade off for an average income player. The import DGT PRS is doing the review rounds at the moment and seems to be blowing people away and have a few scratching their heads on why pay thousands more for a Core model.
….after trying a MKVII recently I would say 3.5K is a terrible value…lol
 
There's more to an amp than just the component cost, but even if you factor in build/repair/qa/etc labor the price of a $5k amp is absurd considering the cost to produce them alone.
Considering the state of affairs for most working, non-classical musicians I would say yes, the top shelf is a ridiculous amount of money.
Can I press you on why the words ridiculous and absurd come to mind? I'm not arguing or even saying you're wrong - these are all just opinions of course - but I'm curious to know where you're coming from.

In my mind, saying a cheap amp does the job or the audience can't tell the difference is irrelevant to the argument. Your neighbour isn't affected by what you drive and how it performs while getting you to work after all. It's also unlikely a CS Les Paul will give the audience a more pleasurable evening over cheap knock off. This items luxury items for the user to enjoy, even if they are 'tools'.

A smart phone probably retails for 50 times its cost of manufacture. Cars, food, furniture, guitars... probably most things have a much higher comparative profit margin. Amps are very expensive to make unless you cheap out on components, or makes 1000's of them.

I guess what I'm saying is there isn't a huge difference between an Asian amp with the cheapest parts money can buy, and the top of the heap.
 
Can I press you on why the words ridiculous and absurd come to mind? I'm not arguing or even saying you're wrong - these are all just opinions of course - but I'm curious to know where you're coming from.

In my mind, saying a cheap amp does the job or the audience can't tell the difference is irrelevant to the argument. Your neighbour isn't affected by what you drive and how it performs while getting you to work after all. It's also unlikely a CS Les Paul will give the audience a more pleasurable evening over cheap knock off. This items luxury items for the user to enjoy, even if they are 'tools'.

A smart phone probably retails for 50 times its cost of manufacture. Cars, food, furniture, guitars... probably most things have a much higher comparative profit margin. Amps are very expensive to make unless you cheap out on components, or makes 1000's of them.

I guess what I'm saying is there isn't a huge difference between an Asian amp with the cheapest parts money can buy, and the top of the heap.

I suppose it's all in the eye of the beholder, what counts as absurd, and I don't have all the data to really say what the cost per amp is to produce some of these things which is the piece of info I need to make a more informed statement. So just to be clear I'd happily change my tune if someone could provide verifiable evidence of the costs to design/market/produce/distribute amplifiers compared to the sale price etc.

I'm also not saying it's easy to just slap together a circuit design and sell amps for a huge profit. Obviously if it were that easy, everyone would be doing it, shoot I'd be doing it too.

But *especially* amps like the new Mesa Mk VII which are basically the same circuit they already designed decades ago, markets itself now, and they have simply tacked on some new switching options/values... I'm not saying it's a bad amp, but the ROI on that original R&D sure has served them well. Even with US assembly, PCB tracing, cabinet building and other labor (support, repairs, distributing etc), at least *some* % of parts are imported (and there is nothing wrong with that), they must make out pretty well per unit.

What I'm getting at is, the profit margins on an amp like the new $3500 Mk VII must be really good. I think what could be 10x the cost to build/distribute something counts as "absurd" markup. On the other hand, if I owned a business stake in an amp company, I'd probably argue that 10x markup is pretty "normal." I'm just using 10x as an example, I have no idea what the cost is to build one, and we never will because Mesa is never going to share that information (because likely it would make them look bad, even if it's just the industry average markup). Guitar players have a weird habit of paying more for non-quantitative things - vibes, "mojo," etc and that lets the prices and marketing run wild too. Each individual buyer will have their threshold for what they consider to be worth an asking price, and whether we are conscious of it or not, most people factor in how much something costs to produce into that.

Your smart phone analogy is way off by the way. A recent iPhone for example costs roughly $400-500 to manufacture and distribute, and retails for about $1000. That's only a bit over 2x markup. An amp is much simpler electronically and uses cheaper components than a phone does. Companies like Apple can afford to sell at lower markup like that because they are moving millions of units every day, as opposed to a higher end amp maker who might move a few per month (or worse).

Long story short:
You and I are both intense enthusiasts of this sort of thing so our threshold for spending is way above average, and that's probably dulled our senses to what the average musician considers to be a big deal in the grand scheme. I mean, I'll blow $2k on an amp no problem. So 4-6k like you said in the grand scheme of things, yeah, it's a HUGE amount of money. Just because a cheaper amp could do it isn't relevant when talking about tone, these are luxury items (it is art in general after all, and art/music is a luxury itself), but it is relevant to when people consider spending money, if something less expensive can do it "well enough." To relate to your car analogy, there will always be someone willing to spend that big money on a Ferrari, but there's a reason why Corvettes that perform nearly the same fly off of lots (here in the US at least) for 1/5 the price of the cheapest Ferrari.
 
Fair points. I must admit I made a wild assumption on the iphone thing, I'm really surprised about that. One thing I'm sure about though, they'd be selling a couple more units than Friedman or Bogner would!

I also admit the 'average' musician is not something that has entered into this argument. Just an observation that the finest products from the most 'booteek' companies is only twice the price of the mass-produced alternative, I'm not sure how common that is.
 
I Haven't done a complete build in 6 years, but the last one I did was easily $1300-1400 in components only just to have a professional look. That did not account for my time, my tools, or any cost associated if I were to have a shop separate from my house. I can only assume that costs of those components have gone up greatly.

That said, you need to price higher in order to weed out too many customers and keep your business manageable. Keep in mind that amps with PCB's Ala Friedman are what, like $3500 now? If Rick were to charge $3500, he would no longer be able to keep up the orders and turn around time.
 
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Most listeners to live music don’t know and probably don’t care; enthusiasts will critique the nuances (mid/highs/fizzies etc); BUT YOU personally will be your worst/best judge of what you have done and did that evening. Had @Metalhex singer used a 200$ mic, and missed a note? Well maybe the thought of the 10k mic would have helped ever so slightly make that note possible. I don’t have a problem taking my best anything anywhere because if I fail; it’s my fault regardless of how expensive it is. I need my best suit to look the best, my best truck to haul some heavy shit, the best beef tenderloin to have the best party, all to make sure I put my best foot forward. If I didn’t; well, maybe I could have been better sounding had I used my 5150 vs the XXX? Will never know. Fuck cost; feel good. I’d rather look good failing than look bad and shitty. 😏.
 
It is really hard to break all of this down because I think manual versus machine, prices going up, demand, etc. all have to be factored in to prices.

I will say this. My Chubtone, built to my exact specs and with a case, was around 2k and sounds phenomenal. There are Korean signature guitars that cost that much from a factory.

At the same time, the Jackson Phil Collen guitar is pricey as shit but I'm sure it plays amazing and is a lifelong keeper. I'd say it is worth the money based on appearance and tone.
 
Sorry, I know this was specific to amps but just using guitar prices as a reference. With amps, that point-to-point is going to take up a lot of time and almost like playing labor to a mechanic.
 
Most of us here have spent pretty decent money on amps, but talking to a non-musician friend recently he made an interesting comment.

He pointed at a DSL and asked what it's worth (it was being used to prop a door open). I said about a grand. They're really common, basically a Toyota of amps. Then he asked what's the Bugatti - I pointed out the Wizards. I mentioned they were handmade by one of the best in the world, parts this, handmade that, AC-DC blah blah, and a very high proportion of players would never even get to play one at 5k.

He said that's no bad, think about the difference between those two cars - could be over 100 times the cost, not 5.

Got me thinking, is 4-6k for the top shelf really a lot of money in the scheme of things? Custom Shop Gibsons and even Fenders these days can be over 10k, and don't get me started on studio gear. 8k for a compressor, or 10k for a mic is pretty commonplace in the high end.

I realise every product category is unique, and the car analogy is obviously flawed, but is 3.5k for a Mesa MkVII or 4k for a Soldano actually pretty good value?

I say yes, what say you?
Bugatti would be Dumble :)
 
I think anything less than 4K for a boutique new amp is the lower end of the market. Compared to a Larry, Wizard, or a Hermannson which can and do cost north of 6K.
A new Naylor SD60 is less yet, and for less than 3K you can get a new Badlander. Used vintage Marshalls are 2400 on up.
 
I think anything less than 4K for a boutique new amp is the lower end of the market. Compared to a Larry, Wizard, or a Hermannson which can and do cost north of 6K.
A new Naylor SD60 is less yet, and for less than 3K you can get a new Badlander. Used vintage Marshalls are 2400 on up.
Is badlander worth anything at all?
 
For our EP, the vocalist used a $10k mic that was in the studio....and I gotta say, he probably would've sounded just as good through a $200 mic.


probably so, just like guys can sound as good or better through a DSL than anything else.. studios though if they are smart should have the $10k mic just to put in the gear list to draw in clients
 
I guess what I'm saying is there isn't a huge difference between an Asian amp with the cheapest parts money can buy, and the top of the heap.
You said yes but this sounds like a no……😂
 
If I can get a good amp that helps inspire me to practice or get unique tones on a recording, it’s money well spent.

The way I see it, I’d rather have a fully decked out Toyota Tundra and Supra than just one nice car. I was going to say one Bugatti but I didn’t know they cost $2-$15 million
 
I buy expensive amps but I do think some are a little high thst I’ve bought . Msybe a little past reality . But mostly ok
 
For our EP, the vocalist used a $10k mic that was in the studio....and I gotta say, he probably would've sounded just as good through a $200 mic.

Was this your vocalists studio or a studio you guys hired? It’s a bit different when you’re making money off the gear. Still a bit crazy to me, but I’ll spend $15-20k on a set of monitors if I know they’re good. And I don’t make money from music, but I’d like to some day. So I guess it’s all relative.
 
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