VH4 owners: Clean question

[guitarman967]

Hello, I was wondering if other VH4's have the same experience as I do with their Clean Channel.
When I read the description of the VH4's Channels on the Salwender site I would say that the descriptions are accurate except for that of the Clean's when it comes to my amp.

Channel one produces a sparkly clean sound, and can offer very slight crunch when the gain control gets pushed to the limit.

For me the Channel wants to distort at most volumes unless I have the gain control set very low. Somewhere around 10:00-11:00..
I've tried to get more headroom by turning the channel volume up and the gain down but unfortunately that doesnt give much in the way of actual volume...I'm looking for more headroom out of this clean ideally.

The poweramp on the VH4 seems to offer plenty of headroom for the other gain channels so it seems that the preamp section is just too hot on the clean.. I'musing Humbucking pickups but not super hot pickups. PRS dragon 2's..

I have tried lower gain tubes in V1 and it hasnt changed this much at all if any..
Ideally I'd like to be able to set the gain control to 12:00-1:00 without any breakup.
The clean would then mix with the other channels volume-wise much better.

Any thoughts or experiences? THANKS..JOEL

 

[Lexicon Devil]

Try setting the gain control to where you get as pristine a clean sound as possible. Crank the power amp up to about halfway or even more. Use channel 1's volume as you would a master volume. Any distortion that you get from this setup would be from the power amp.

If you have any problems cutting through with your clean sounds, then maybe your drummer needs to chill out and not hit so hard. --Getting a drummer to hit softer ( as futile as it may seem) can work wonders at getting the rest of the band to turn down, and make your clean tones cut through.

Also, I have no idea of what you're using for output tubes, but you may want to try using tubes like 6550's or KT88's to deal with powerstage headroom issues. Unfortunately, this will also have a global effect on your tone from the other channels.

 

[guitarman967]

Try setting the gain control to where you get as pristine a clean sound as possible. Crank the power amp up to about halfway or even more. Use channel 1's volume as you would a master volume. Any distortion that you get from this setup would be from the power amp.

If you have any problems cutting through with your clean sounds, then maybe your drummer needs to chill out and not hit so hard. --Getting a drummer to hit softer ( as futile as it may seem) can work wonders at getting the rest of the band to turn down, and make your clean tones cut through.

Also, I have no idea of what you're using for output tubes, but you may want to try using tubes like 6550's or KT88's to deal with powerstage headroom issues. Unfortunately, this will also have a global effect on your tone from the other channels.

Thanks for the advice man but the problem is from the preamp's gain control not the poweramp..
I've set the amp how you described to experiment in the past and it works well for the clean but not my cup of tea for the rest of the amplifiers channels, especially the high gain channels. I need all channels to work in conjunction with each other.

Like I pointed out earlier, the Clean's Channel volume control really doesnt add much volume to the mix..

 

[Peter Diezel]

Hey Joel,

which guitar and PU´s You are using ?

 

[ajharris1215]

i would think that's the critical component also. he said he's using prs dragon 2's, which come stock in the prs custom 22/24. he states they aren't very "hot", but this doesn't mean they don't break up.

i've owned a few dragon loaded prs custom 22's, and that guitar/pickup combo did break up on it's own. all my prs customs tend break up fast, no matter what pickups are in them.

i don't have this problem with my vh4, as i usually play gibsons, and the clean will stay beautifully clear even at levels above the other channels. and i play loud. i usually have to turn channel 1 down to compensate.

 

[guitarman967]

PRS Dragon 2 Peter..
They are moderate output. Leaning towards being hot pickups but not quite there.

The pickups are the first thing I looked at but in retrospect, I haven't had a problem with other cleans from my amps with these pickups.
My Fender Super stays really clean as does my Cobra, Dragon and Egnator TOL 100.

Hey AJharris, question for you: If you turn you clean's gain control up to let's say, 12:00 to 1:00 would the clean disort if you strum or pick hard?

 

[Peter Diezel]

So I would check the tubes and the bias, because
in any case You can get a loud and clean tone
out of the amp.

 

[ajharris1215]

Hey AJharris, question for you: If you turn you clean's gain control up to let's say, 12:00 to 1:00 would the clean disort if you strum or pick hard?

i would say that breakup begins around 12:30 - 1:00. obviously, dynamics in picking/playing affects it greatly.

do you have the bright switch engaged? mine is off.

you know what made a huge difference for me? the bass knob on channel 1... dime it. it really inserts the clean channel in the mix. also, be careful with your upper mids and highs, especially on those dragon 2's. most of channel 1's breakup seems to lie in those frequencies.

basically:
crank the bass all the way up, and back off slowly according to taste. start with treble and mids at 12:00, and set a clear sound with no breakup. use the volume knob to match with other channels, but keep in mind that it offers a bit of breakup on it's own. that's how i've been setting my clean.

 

[guitarman967]

Hey AJharris, question for you: If you turn you clean's gain control up to let's say, 12:00 to 1:00 would the clean disort if you strum or pick hard?

i would say that breakup begins around 12:30 - 1:00. obviously, dynamics in picking/playing affects it greatly.

do you have the bright switch engaged? mine is off.

you know what made a huge difference for me? the bass knob on channel 1... dime it. it really inserts the clean channel in the mix. also, be careful with your upper mids and highs, especially on those dragon 2's. most of channel 1's breakup seems to lie in those frequencies.

basically:
crank the bass all the way up, and back off slowly according to taste. start with treble and mids at 12:00, and set a clear sound with no breakup. use the volume knob to match with other channels, but keep in mind that it offers a bit of breakup on it's own. that's how i've been setting my clean.

Sounds like quite the delicate Process from your description.

You know what? It seems to want to break up more when the Bright is engaged which does give more upper mid.
I can get the channel to sound clean with the gain setting low its just not ideal for how I want the channel to sound.

I can see breakup when the gain gets over 2:00-3:00 or higher but 10:00-11:00 is too early for me to dial in a warm breathy clean that doesnt break-up..
o well, I'll have to deal

 

[guitarman967]

So I would check the tubes and the bias, because
in any case You can get a loud and clean tone
out of the amp.

Stock tubes my man.. Bias for the power tubes is set correctly and should have no bearing on the clean's gain control as you know..There's just too much on tap it seems.The break up is more like a nasty breakup in the highs but not really as a whole. The lows dont seem to be affected so much.
I dont want much gain until I get to channel 2 ideally you know?
I've even tried the lowest gain tube I can find (Sovtek 12X7WA) and the results are not much different..

 

[Sacha]

No problems with headroom here, using humbuckers as well. Maybe a compressor would help for you?

 

[guitarman967]

No problems with headroom here, using humbuckers as well. Maybe a compressor would help for you?

I want make sure I'm describing the issue correctly.
I can get a clean that doesnt break up if the gain is dialed low and the master up..
The issue is getting the clean sound that I want at levels that match those of the other channels.

I tried again with other tubes today. Low gain 12AX7WA in V1 and one in V4.. Anything over a setting of 11:00 on the gain control causes break-up when I pick hard.
Is this uncommon?

Certainly this is a far cry from the Salwender description of a sparkling clean until gain is pushed to the limits..
Maybe there is something wrong with my particular amp?

 

[i.ak]

No problems with headroom here, using humbuckers as well. Maybe a compressor would help for you?

I want make sure I'm describing the issue correctly.
I can get a clean that doesnt break up if the gain is dialed low and the master up..
The issue is getting the clean sound that I want at levels that match those of the other channels.

I tried again with other tubes today. Anything over a setting of 11:00 on the gain control causes break-up when I pick hard.
Is this uncommon?

Certainly this is a far cry from the Salwender description of a sparkling clean until gain is pushed to the limits..
Maybe there is something wrong with my particular amp?

I believe the break-up is due to the high output pickups in your guitar. I have the same situation with one of my guitars that has a very hot pickup and there is no issues with my other guitars that have more "mellow" pickups. (In case of clarification, I have a VH4 and use only passive pickups.)

Does the break-up happen with a neck pickup or when you roll of the guitar's volume pot a bit?

 

[guitarman967]

No problems with headroom here, using humbuckers as well. Maybe a compressor would help for you?

I want make sure I'm describing the issue correctly.
I can get a clean that doesnt break up if the gain is dialed low and the master up..
The issue is getting the clean sound that I want at levels that match those of the other channels.

I tried again with other tubes today. Anything over a setting of 11:00 on the gain control causes break-up when I pick hard.
Is this uncommon?

Certainly this is a far cry from the Salwender description of a sparkling clean until gain is pushed to the limits..
Maybe there is something wrong with my particular amp?

I believe the break-up is due to the high output pickups in your guitar. I have the same situation with one of my guitars that has a very hot pickup and there is no issues with my other guitars that have more "mellow" pickups. (In case of clarification, I have a VH4 and use only passive pickups.)

Does the break-up happen with a neck pickup or when you roll of the guitar's volume pot a bit?

Although this might be the case I don't understand why the clean should be so sensitive to moderately high output pickups?

None of my other amps have that problem at all and the VH4 is so great channel 2-4! Its supposed to give you ALL the sounds. The volume levels are hard to match up right with the gain so touchy. Its hard to get volume and NOT gain.

Bottom line in my opinion, The clean just needs to be cleaner on an amp of this magnitude.
If someone wants the clean to break up they could go to channel 2 Or they could turn the gain control up to max on the clean but breakup at 12:00 or thereabouts is just frustrating.

 

[ajharris1215]

i think you're looking for a sound that most multi-channel amps don't deliver. you mentioned a "warm, breathy clean". the cleans on my vh4 don't compare to a twin reverb or roland jazz chorus etc. the break up occurs much sooner. but i don't have a problem matching the clean to other channels. even with a little bit of break up, the channel comes across clean in the mix.

i disagree about your assessment of salwender's description. i think it's fairly accurate.

the only other multi-channel amp i've found that has a clean channel rivaling the vh4's is the framus cobra. but it's clean breaks up in a similar fashion. there's no such thing as a "perfect amp" that will please everyone. if its such a problem for you, use another amp.

 

[guitarman967]

i think you're looking for a sound that most multi-channel amps don't deliver. you mentioned a "warm, breathy clean". the cleans on my vh4 don't compare to a twin reverb or roland jazz chorus etc. the break up occurs much sooner. but i don't have a problem matching the clean to other channels. even with a little bit of break up, the channel comes across clean in the mix.

i disagree about your assessment of salwender's description. i think it's fairly accurate.

the only other multi-channel amp i've found that has a clean channel rivaling the vh4's is the framus cobra. but it's clean breaks up in a similar fashion. there's no such thing as a "perfect amp" that will please everyone. if its such a problem for you, use another amp.

I have a Cobra man. No breakup at all on the clean unless the gain is above 3:00. Lot's of headroom. Not even the same animal as far as cleans.
Plenty of high gain heads I've had didn't have breakup issues. I could name a long size list, including the Herbert, which by the way does deliver warm breathy cleans. Some of the best I've ever heard in a High gain head. (especially w/ the midcut engaged if you want it to sparkle)

What's Strange is that you seem defensive, I don't know why. You said yourself the clean breaks up @ 12:00-1:00..
You call that headroom
I don't. Yes, I may be picky but I think I have a right to be when it concerns and amp that is $4500.

 

[Tabs]

Joel,

I've had exactly the same issue with my VH4 man. EBMM Petrucci 6 string w/ the stock DiMarzios. I had Mike at 65 Amps look at it and he said the amp's operating normally.

I think I'm gonna use my Axe-FX for cleans once I get it next month because of this...

 

[guitarman967]

Joel,

I've had exactly the same issue with my VH4 man. EBMM Petrucci 6 string w/ the stock DiMarzios. I had Mike at 65 Amps look at it and he said the amp's operating normally.

I think I'm gonna use my Axe-FX for cleans once I get it next month because of this...

Thanks for that man, it's like the Twilight Zone around here
I currently own 5 high gain heads including the VH4 and do not have a fraction of the trouble getting the clean right w/ them
No offense to any of the guys here that are happy with their clean sound.
Peter you make an amazing amp but I'm afraid the clean may not be for me

 

[Peter Diezel]

If I´m in USA it´s no problem to serve You.
Sorry for the issues. Maybe there is an occasion
to take a look into the amp during the year.

Peter

 

[guitarman967]

If I´m in USA it´s no problem to serve You.
Sorry for the issues. Maybe there is an occasion
to take a look into the amp during the year.

Peter

I appreciate that Peter. Your Support of Diezel Amplifiers is the best in the industry and I want to thank-you for that