Herbie/Wilder/Midi/Footswtich..

Chrisbarrett27

New member
Alright, so I was pretty close to purchasing that new foot switch for the Herbert that Jon Wilder has put out. Then I got to thinking, I'd like to get a G Major 2, or some other midi controlled effects processor. I can't wrap my head around what would be more practical. Do you think two foot switches would be overkill? One for the amp itself and one for my effects? Or would it be better to just have one big midi footswitch to control the amp/effects together? I'm a really simple guy, I only plan on mostly using delays and reverbs, maybe some chorus and other mods every now and then. I just want something as simple as possible. I was even leaning towards the Line 6 M series of pedals, but I've had line 6 stuff before (not the best stuff, but pretty decent) and I wanted something a little "nicer" to go with my $4200 amp. I'm assuming if I only purchased a midi foot switch for the amp, I'd have to replace my chip with the new Wilder chip so I could use CC messages??? I've done a lot of reading on the whole "midi" thing, but I'm still having issues completely understanding it all. With my old rig I used two hardwire (delay/reverb) pedals in my loop which was cool, I'd just like something a little more extensive. I was even looking at the TC G system which looks pretty incredible. It might be a bit much for what I need. I'm not gigging or anything, mainly a bedroom player, however, I'd like to have the option of I end up getting into a band again. Any advice/thoughts?
 
You don't need to replace the chip to use it with a midi controller, the use of CC's just opens for more possibilites with how you set it up with midi.
Now if you bought something like a G-Major, it would be silly not using the midi switching capability of the amp, no need for a seperate switch for channel switching then.
With the stock midi chip you can change amp channels together with presets on the effects unit.
What differs with the new CC chip is that you can dedicate switches on the right midi controller for channel switching.
Let's say you have a midi controller like the Rocktron MidiMate, you can have the bottom row of switches set up for presets, and you can have 4 switches on the top row for channel switching.
That means if you are in a preset and suddenly feel like throwing in a quick solo bit, you can change channels on your amp while staying in the same preset.
Not a must have, but can be convenient.
 
How about the mid cut/volume 2/effects loop being controlled via midi? Can you program the midi pedal to do that? Or would have to create say two clean channel patches one with the mid cut on/one with it off?
 
Chrisbarrett27":2ljocpp2 said:
How about the mid cut/volume 2/effects loop being controlled via midi? Can you program the midi pedal to do that? Or would have to create say two clean channel patches one with the mid cut on/one with it off?

Yeah, with the stock chip you'd have to create new patches for each change. With the new one you can assign switches for any function, if you have the right midi pedal.
 
Hi Chris.

As Blix stated, with the stock chip, everything must be switched in patches unless you have the Evolution foot switch. The Evolution foot switch would provide the "stomp box style" selection of the channels and functions while an external MIDI controller would provide patch selection.

With the Evolution chip however, a MIDI controller with "instant access" buttons will do both patch recall as well as stomp box style switching of the channels and functions.

MIDI controllers that take advantage of the CC implementation on the Evolution chips include but are not limited to the Voodoo Lab Ground Control Pro, Rocktron All Access, Liquid Foot Pro, Rocktron MIDI Mate, RJM Mastermind, and I'm sure there are many others available.
 
I use a Columbus and could not be happier.

00- Clean with Mid Cut (can program loop 2 for EP Booster)
01- Ch.2 with Mid Cut
02- Ch. 3 with Mid Cut
03-Ch.2 Mid Cut with V2
04-Ch.3 Mid Cut with V2
05-Ch. 1- no mid cut
06-Ch. 2 no mid cut
07-Ch. 3 no mid cut
08-Ch.2 V2, no mid cut
09-Ch. 3 V2 no mid cut
10- mute

It's more than enough. And I don't need stickers. :rock:
 
MARK2C":39eaaokn said:
I use a Columbus and could not be happier.

00- Clean with Mid Cut (can program loop 2 for EP Booster)
01- Ch.2 with Mid Cut
02- Ch. 3 with Mid Cut
03-Ch.2 Mid Cut with V2
04-Ch.3 Mid Cut with V2
05-Ch. 1- no mid cut
06-Ch. 2 no mid cut
07-Ch. 3 no mid cut
08-Ch.2 V2, no mid cut
09-Ch. 3 V2 no mid cut
10- mute

It's more than enough. And I don't need stickers. :rock:

While this is fine for some people, others want a little more control than this.

It's easy to say "I just switch them in patches like this" when that was the only way to switch things for the longest time. However, there are options available now that weren't available until now. Some were just like this...didn't see a need to switch things individually and just did it all in patches. Then they got the chip and realized just what they were missing out on.

Furthermore, when running other external MIDI gear, some just want to be able to switch something on/off without changing the current configuration on the amp or changing patches on their external MIDI gear. Some just wanna be able to enable their V2 for a lead boost, or even their mid cut for a tone change, or perhaps even just bypass their effects loop(s) without switching anything else in their rigs. Even better, some would like to mute their amp without having to waste a patch as a mute patch. MIDI instant access is what will provide this ability.

Different strokes for different folks. Every player has a different rig and different needs from said rig. People can talk about it all they want and not see the point in it. But those people have grown so comfortable with their setups that they will never see the point until they actually try it. Bottom line...don't knock it 'till you try it. ;)
 
Chrisbarrett27":1hz4ojz1 said:
@Mark That sounds simple enough. Can you program effects with that too if you wanted?

The midi through changes all effects presets and all external effects/audio loopers with no problem. For someone who started with midi controllers in 1987 with the ADA MP1 and MC1 and Diezel VH4 in 1999 you pretty much get used to programming just what you use.
 
SinDes1":ubuxe8j4 said:
MARK2C":ubuxe8j4 said:
I use a Columbus and could not be happier.

00- Clean with Mid Cut (can program loop 2 for EP Booster)
01- Ch.2 with Mid Cut
02- Ch. 3 with Mid Cut
03-Ch.2 Mid Cut with V2
04-Ch.3 Mid Cut with V2
05-Ch. 1- no mid cut
06-Ch. 2 no mid cut
07-Ch. 3 no mid cut
08-Ch.2 V2, no mid cut
09-Ch. 3 V2 no mid cut
10- mute

It's more than enough. And I don't need stickers. :rock:

While this is fine for some people, others want a little more control than this.

It's easy to say "I just switch them in patches like this" when that was the only way to switch things for the longest time. However, there are options available now that weren't available until now. Some were just like this...didn't see a need to switch things individually and just did it all in patches. Then they got the chip and realized just what they were missing out on.

Furthermore, when running other external MIDI gear, some just want to be able to switch something on/off without changing the current configuration on the amp or changing patches on their external MIDI gear. Some just wanna be able to enable their V2 for a lead boost, or even their mid cut for a tone change, or perhaps even just bypass their effects loop(s) without switching anything else in their rigs. Even better, some would like to mute their amp without having to waste a patch as a mute patch. MIDI instant access is what will provide this ability.

Different strokes for different folks. Every player has a different rig and different needs from said rig. People can talk about it all they want and not see the point in it. But those people have grown so comfortable with their setups that they will never see the point until they actually try it. Bottom line...don't knock it 'till you try it. ;)

Now, I am not George Lynch but rarely do I need to stray from what I program.
The Wilder footswitch may be simpler for people who simply want it that way, but all of
my rig is made by Diezel. Herbert, VH4 and Columbus. I understand that Peter is allright with
this Wilder chip and footswitch, but I don't need to be slapped in the face with it everytime there is a midi footswitch question on the DIEZEL forum. You added CC to the Atmel 89S8253 used in Diezel's, WE GET IT !!!!!! Your trying to recoup your $ 3.19 cost for the chip, labor, time, materials, Atmel programmer, WE GET IT !!! I appreciate what you guys are doing, but I don't think your going to retire to the Florida Keys with this one, plus I am not here to shop for a midi controller. I also don't see a Caveat that this chip will only work for later Diezel's running the 8253 Chip and that older amps (Pre 2005) with the 8252 would have to upgrade the oscillator capacitors on the midi board in order for it to function. If your going to spam every forum looking for the 4,000 US Diezel owners, at least get your compatability issues posted. Where's the VH4 footswitch, or does that only have three buttons on the bottom for a 4 channel amp ?

I don't feel wasting a patch for "Mute" is an appropriate tactic. I have 127 more...
I wish you huys the best of luck, I really do but this feels like predatory marketing in a manufacturer forum. No tact.
 
To answer the question regarding the VH4 foot switch, these would have 3 function switches on the top row for Mute, Channel Insert, and Send 2, while the bottom row would be the 4 channel select switches. Basically the button pattern is reversed for the Hagen and VH4 foot switches.

That being said, I'm not meaning to be rude, but I and several others feel it to be unfair to go publicly posting slanderous comments about a company's products that you do not have much knowledge of, much less have any direct experience with. And no one said you were George Lynch...but did you ever stop to think that perhaps there may be other players who want some of the same things that he wants? ;)

First off...George Lynch only inspired the foot switch. It was his idea and was supposed to just be a custom one-off product for him and him only. My R&D quest to find information on if it could be done led me here to Rig Talk...not "predatory marketing" as you put it (last I checked, the whole point behind making and selling products is to target the market that wants them...hardly "predatory" IMHO). Prior to doing this pedal for George, I knew NOTHING about Diezel amplifiers other than the fact that they existed.

It was during my R&D phase here on Rig Talk that I decided to make it available to the public as others here on Rig Talk stated that they wanted such a pedal. What is so wrong with making a product that people want? Isn't that how business works in the first place?

George had nothing to do with the chips. That was my idea that came along when I discovered yet others were looking for a solution to use their MIDI controller's "instant access" buttons to switch their amps. I DID NOT modify Diezel's firmware. I rewrote the firmware entirely from scratch. Testing and debugging had to be done as has to be done with any sort of product development.

Yes the AT89S8253 may very well be $3.20. However, the chip is nothing without firmware on it. Just like when you buy an artist's CD...the CD itself only costs about $0.50, yet you pay $15-$20 for it at the store. Why is this? Because you're not JUST buying the CD. You're buying the content on the CD as a blank CD is useless. Just like when you buy a computer operating system you pay $200-$300 (sometimes even more than that depending on the OS). Sure, the CD that holds the OS again is only $0.50. But you're paying for the SOFTWARE.

It goes the same way for microcontrollers and EEPROMs. You're paying for the firmware on the chip...not just the chip itself. The chip itself is just the device that holds the firmware and the machine that runs it. An EEPROM is just a storage medium that contains the firmware that you purchased. Without the firmware, these devices are non-functional and will do nothing.

I wrote the firmware, I spent months getting it 100% perfect with no bugs. Just as an artist would expect to make what is entitled to them when distributing $0.50 CDs that contain music that they wrote, I feel I deserve to make what I am entitled to when distributing $3.20 microcontrollers that contain firmware code that I wrote. ;)

Furthermore, you accuse me of "hiding compatibility issues" by not disclosing anything about changing burden caps for the 89S8253. Fact is there is no need to replace the burden caps on pre-2005 Diezel's. The whole point of the chip replacement was to offer up a mod to the masses that could be done WITHOUT having to change anything but the controller chip and be compatible with all Diezel amps. Furthermore, the 8253 has been tested in a circuit set up for an 8252 and passed all tests with flying colors anyway (I actually did most of my test and development on a bread board, which measures out a 91pF intertrace capacitance and had absolutely zero issues even with that). Little known fact about the 8253...due to its low power design it will actually work just fine without the burden caps installed (check the 8253 datasheet if you doubt this) since they already have 10pF of internal capacitance as it is (this would be inaddition to the intertrace capacitance that already exists in the PCB design). So if the higher value burden caps in older Diezels turns out to be an issue, removing them completely from the circuit should resolve the issue.

Lastly...I originally came to Rig Talk to do R&D for the foot switch. But it was the Rig Talk members who were also wanting the same thing that George wanted that prompted me to go through designing the pedal, making it available to the public, as well as going through the process of developing all new firmware for these amps. Had no one here had stated that they wanted the pedals and/or the ability to switch the channels and functions via MIDI CC/instant access, I would not have had a reason to venture into rewriting the firmware or making the pedals available to the public. I would've just simply made the one pedal for George and that would've been the end of it. But this was not the case, people wanted both products, so I ventured into making them. Hardly "predatory marketing" as you put it.

I understand if you have no personal use for my products. If you're happy with your rig, great! Again...different strokes for different folks. Your rig and preferences are unique to your personal tastes as all of our rigs are. However, this does not make my product inferior in any way just because you have no use for it in your personal rig. Therefore I feel it to be unfair to be taking a hit just because you want to flame products that have no place in your personal rig.
 
I didn't mean for this thread to blow up like this. I apologize for any animosity being held against anyone that posted something.

@Mark Thanks for the advice dude, I appreciate it. In Jon's defense I did put "Wilder" in the thread topic, so he had every right to post here and I always appreciate everything he has to offer. He goes above and beyond with customer service just like Mr. Diezel does. I honestly don't think he meant anything personal by what he said. He's just trying to help people. In fact, if you look at another thread or two above this one you'll see one of our fellow Diezel owners purchased Jon's chip and absolutely raves about it.

@Jon As always, great help and advice. Thank you so much. I still have lots of thinking to do, but either way I'll be purchasing one of your products.

@Rezamatix Those are sweet! Where did you pick those up at?
 
SinDes1":3nbam9ls said:
To answer the question regarding the VH4 foot switch, these would have 3 function switches on the top row for Mute, Channel Insert, and Send 2, while the bottom row would be the 4 channel select switches. Basically the button pattern is reversed for the Hagen and VH4 foot switches.

That being said, I'm not meaning to be rude, but I and several others feel it to be unfair to go publicly posting slanderous comments about a company's products that you do not have much knowledge of, much less have any direct experience with. And no one said you were George Lynch...but did you ever stop to think that perhaps there may be other players who want some of the same things that he wants? ;)

First off...George Lynch only inspired the foot switch. It was his idea and was supposed to just be a custom one-off product for him and him only. My R&D quest to find information on if it could be done led me here to Rig Talk...not "predatory marketing" as you put it (last I checked, the whole point behind making and selling products is to target the market that wants them...hardly "predatory" IMHO). Prior to doing this pedal for George, I knew NOTHING about Diezel amplifiers other than the fact that they existed.

It was during my R&D phase here on Rig Talk that I decided to make it available to the public as others here on Rig Talk stated that they wanted such a pedal. What is so wrong with making a product that people want? Isn't that how business works in the first place?

George had nothing to do with the chips. That was my idea that came along when I discovered yet others were looking for a solution to use their MIDI controller's "instant access" buttons to switch their amps. I DID NOT modify Diezel's firmware. I rewrote the firmware entirely from scratch. Testing and debugging had to be done as has to be done with any sort of product development.

Yes the AT89S8253 may very well be $3.20. However, the chip is nothing without firmware on it. Just like when you buy an artist's CD...the CD itself only costs about $0.50, yet you pay $15-$20 for it at the store. Why is this? Because you're not JUST buying the CD. You're buying the content on the CD as a blank CD is useless. Just like when you buy a computer operating system you pay $200-$300 (sometimes even more than that depending on the OS). Sure, the CD that holds the OS again is only $0.50. But you're paying for the SOFTWARE.

It goes the same way for microcontrollers and EEPROMs. You're paying for the firmware on the chip...not just the chip itself. The chip itself is just the device that holds the firmware and the machine that runs it. An EEPROM is just a storage medium that contains the firmware that you purchased. Without the firmware, these devices are non-functional and will do nothing.

I wrote the firmware, I spent months getting it 100% perfect with no bugs. Just as an artist would expect to make what is entitled to them when distributing $0.50 CDs that contain music that they wrote, I feel I deserve to make what I am entitled to when distributing $3.20 microcontrollers that contain firmware code that I wrote. ;)

Furthermore, you accuse me of "hiding compatibility issues" by not disclosing anything about changing burden caps for the 89S8253. Fact is there is no need to replace the burden caps on pre-2005 Diezel's. The whole point of the chip replacement was to offer up a mod to the masses that could be done WITHOUT having to change anything but the controller chip and be compatible with all Diezel amps. Furthermore, the 8253 has been tested in a circuit set up for an 8252 and passed all tests with flying colors anyway (I actually did most of my test and development on a bread board, which measures out a 91pF intertrace capacitance and had absolutely zero issues even with that). Little known fact about the 8253...due to its low power design it will actually work just fine without the burden caps installed (check the 8253 datasheet if you doubt this) since they already have 10pF of internal capacitance as it is (this would be inaddition to the intertrace capacitance that already exists in the PCB design). So if the higher value burden caps in older Diezels turns out to be an issue, removing them completely from the circuit should resolve the issue.

Lastly...I originally came to Rig Talk to do R&D for the foot switch. But it was the Rig Talk members who were also wanting the same thing that George wanted that prompted me to go through designing the pedal, making it available to the public, as well as going through the process of developing all new firmware for these amps. Had no one here had stated that they wanted the pedals and/or the ability to switch the channels and functions via MIDI CC/instant access, I would not have had a reason to venture into rewriting the firmware or making the pedals available to the public. I would've just simply made the one pedal for George and that would've been the end of it. But this was not the case, people wanted both products, so I ventured into making them. Hardly "predatory marketing" as you put it.

I understand if you have no personal use for my products. If you're happy with your rig, great! Again...different strokes for different folks. Your rig and preferences are unique to your personal tastes as all of our rigs are. However, this does not make my product inferior in any way just because you have no use for it in your personal rig. Therefore I feel it to be unfair to be taking a hit just because you want to flame products that have no place in your personal rig.

No one said your product was bad and now you have cleared up any compatability issues.
The implied R&D, Labour and any other costs was included in my original statement. You have to recoup what you put in and make a profit. Already attested, so I don't feel I flamed anyone.

I still feel it's preadatory marketing in a manufacturers forum, so maybe you should get your own forum ? If Diezel had a similar product you should have been gone by the first post.
I guess the Columbus is far enough away to allow you to keep pushing the product, but your website only has one testimonial !!!!! Of course every Diezel owner wanted this chip or controller, until it was available. Welcome to dealing on the web. Flakes abound !!!

Did you really think this process out ? No need to go all Fryette on people.
 
Chrisbarrett27":1tzfm6qj said:
I didn't mean for this thread to blow up like this. I apologize for any animosity being held against anyone that posted something.

@Mark Thanks for the advice dude, I appreciate it. In Jon's defense I did put "Wilder" in the thread topic, so he had every right to post here and I always appreciate everything he has to offer. He goes above and beyond with customer service just like Mr. Diezel does. I honestly don't think he meant anything personal by what he said. He's just trying to help people. In fact, if you look at another thread or two above this one you'll see one of our fellow Diezel owners purchased Jon's chip and absolutely raves about it.

@Jon As always, great help and advice. Thank you so much. I still have lots of thinking to do, but either way I'll be purchasing one of your products.

@Rezamatix Those are sweet! Where did you pick those up at?


Such is life. Just my opinion in the Diezel forum.
Should be in a Wilder forum. It just peeves me to no end when I give my opinion on Diezel products in a Diezel Forum and get all this nonsense.

Sorry if I mucked up your thread and congrats on the Herbert.
 
If Diezel made a similar product I never would have gone through with any of this. I don't see a point in making custom versions of switching devices that are already available. Plus my intent was never to step on Diezel's toes. If they already had a footswitch available that can do what ours does I would have just referred George to their footswitch. If their firmware could already support MIDI CC messages I would not have had a reason to write new firmware.

I look for areas where I can fulfill a need...not areas where I can step on the toes of others.

The Columbus can only switch patches. Our Evolution footswitch is like having the channel and function switches on the floor. The beauty of it is that the Evolution foot switch will work in conjunction with a Columbus to give the player BOTH patch recall AND instant access to the channel and function switches.

Yes...only one review so far. But we JUST released it not even a week ago. The number of reviews is not a conclusive reflection of quantity sold.

I'm working on our website day and night so we will have our own forum up very soon.
 
SinDes1":u72iiefn said:
If Diezel made a similar product I never would have gone through with any of this. I don't see a point in making custom versions of switching devices that are already available. Plus my intent was never to step on Diezel's toes. If they already had a footswitch available that can do what ours does I would have just referred George to their footswitch. If their firmware could already support MIDI CC messages I would not have had a reason to write new firmware.

I look for areas where I can fulfill a need...not areas where I can step on the toes of others.

The Columbus can only switch patches. Our Evolution footswitch is like having the channel and function switches on the floor. The beauty of it is that the Evolution foot switch will work in conjunction with a Columbus to give the player BOTH patch recall AND instant access to the channel and function switches.

Yes...only one review so far. But we JUST released it not even a week ago. The number of reviews is not a conclusive reflection of quantity sold.

I'm working on our website day and night so we will have our own forum up very soon.

I completely see your side now and fully understanding you know your stuff and worked hard on making this happen !!!
Plus you are making the effort to differentiate your product as an upgrade to the limitations of the original.

So, is it possible to make a Herbert / VH4 combination foot controller ? I have both and have been thinking about what possibilities your controller could open in the functionality of the amps.

You have most likely have been dealing with your biggest pain in the ass future customer !!!!
Well done....
 
MARK2C":3ln8c47p said:
I completely see your side now and fully understanding you know your stuff and worked hard on making this happen !!!
Plus you are making the effort to differentiate your product as an upgrade to the limitations of the original.

So, is it possible to make a Herbert / VH4 combination foot controller ? I have both and have been thinking about what possibilities your controller could open in the functionality of the amps.

You have most likely have been dealing with your biggest pain in the ass future customer !!!!
Well done....

Since the Herbert, VH4 and Hagen all use the same firmware, yes it is possible.
 
MARK2C":29itus5b said:
SinDes1":29itus5b said:
If Diezel made a similar product I never would have gone through with any of this. I don't see a point in making custom versions of switching devices that are already available. Plus my intent was never to step on Diezel's toes. If they already had a footswitch available that can do what ours does I would have just referred George to their footswitch. If their firmware could already support MIDI CC messages I would not have had a reason to write new firmware.

I look for areas where I can fulfill a need...not areas where I can step on the toes of others.

The Columbus can only switch patches. Our Evolution footswitch is like having the channel and function switches on the floor. The beauty of it is that the Evolution foot switch will work in conjunction with a Columbus to give the player BOTH patch recall AND instant access to the channel and function switches.

Yes...only one review so far. But we JUST released it not even a week ago. The number of reviews is not a conclusive reflection of quantity sold.

I'm working on our website day and night so we will have our own forum up very soon.

I completely see your side now and fully understanding you know your stuff and worked hard on making this happen !!!
Plus you are making the effort to differentiate your product as an upgrade to the limitations of the original.

So, is it possible to make a Herbert / VH4 combination foot controller ? I have both and have been thinking about what possibilities your controller could open in the functionality of the amps.

You have most likely have been dealing with your biggest pain in the ass future customer !!!!
Well done....

could you please discuss this in a wilder forum? ;)

just kidding :thumbsup:
 
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