Mode Practice versus actual Applications

[ttosh]

I use a lot of different (what I call techniques) for practicing modes, doing straight modes in a scale, doing all modes in a key, doing a mode in 9,9,9 or 9,6,6, type technique (which is using the first 9 notes in the modal position, going to the next mode but staying positioned for the initial mode to work my way up the fretboard) all of this is good in theory and for practice for me. When playing this helps me visualize what I want to do better, at least I feel it does.

What are some of the ways you guys practice your modes versus actually applying them in playing and how much attention do you pay to modes when actually improvising versus writing a planned solo to a song of yours?

 

[amiller]

I use a lot of different (what I call techniques) for practicing modes, doing straight modes in a scale, doing all modes in a key, doing a mode in 9,9,9 or 9,6,6, type technique (which is using the first 9 notes in the modal position, going to the next mode but staying positioned for the initial mode to work my way up the fretboard) all of this is good in theory and for practice for me. When playing this helps me visualize what I want to do better, at least I feel it does.

What are some of the ways you guys practice your modes versus actually applying them in playing and how much attention do you pay to modes when actually improvising versus writing a planned solo to a song of yours?

Drone baby drone. For instance, use a keyboard to play and indefinitely sustain a "C." Now, play C Ionian, Dorian, Phyrgian, Lydian ...etc. This will give you a good idea of the sound of each mode. If you don't have a keyboard you'll need to generate the C using another method.

 

[ttosh]

I use a lot of different (what I call techniques) for practicing modes, doing straight modes in a scale, doing all modes in a key, doing a mode in 9,9,9 or 9,6,6, type technique (which is using the first 9 notes in the modal position, going to the next mode but staying positioned for the initial mode to work my way up the fretboard) all of this is good in theory and for practice for me. When playing this helps me visualize what I want to do better, at least I feel it does.

What are some of the ways you guys practice your modes versus actually applying them in playing and how much attention do you pay to modes when actually improvising versus writing a planned solo to a song of yours?

Drone baby drone. For instance, use a keyboard to play and indefinitely sustain a "C." Now, play C Ionian, Dorian, Phyrgian, Lydian ...etc. This will give you a good idea of the sound of each mode. If you don't have a keyboard you'll need to generate the C using another method.

Cool idea, I was just phrasing techniques above for the learning of these modes to share. I have played these modes since I was (well we will leave age out of this) and I understand how they sound. However that is a good idea for those wanting to see the differences from mode to mode.

 

[War Admiral]

Knowing what mode I'm using is secondary to me and not as important in the sense that I'm thinking ''OK, the chord changed to C so I'm in C lydian while I'm playing over a VIm IV IIm for instance. I think more in over the chord static phrasing now versus let the modes run their course as the chord tones change. I find this sounds too generic and doesn't have that certain oomph factor when you are improvising or constucting a solo. All the most interesting lines have those out notes leading to those chord changes (not all the time) that are not in your regular "scale". So you basically work off your chord tones and add whatever color or sound you want not necessarily using the specified mode. Your in a more intervallic mode of thinking.

Another advantage to this technique is that your not boxed in modal playing and when there is a chord that is not in the same key as you are used too and doesn't work, it is not a problem and you won't even blink when it comes up and you will be able to weave it in your general direction of where you want to go or your feel. I think its essential to have your modes down pat and are able to play them in every position on the neck in your sleep( positional playing and 3 note per string patterns) knowing the sounds and color each brings before experimenting with this way of playing. I'm just giving food for thought, that is all.

 

[degenaro]

I use a lot of different (what I call techniques) for practicing modes, doing straight modes in a scale, doing all modes in a key, doing a mode in 9,9,9 or 9,6,6, type technique (which is using the first 9 notes in the modal position, going to the next mode but staying positioned for the initial mode to work my way up the fretboard) all of this is good in theory and for practice for me. When playing this helps me visualize what I want to do better, at least I feel it does.

What are some of the ways you guys practice your modes versus actually applying them in playing and how much attention do you pay to modes when actually improvising versus writing a planned solo to a song of yours?

Drone baby drone. For instance, use a keyboard to play and indefinitely sustain a "C." Now, play C Ionian, Dorian, Phyrgian, Lydian ...etc. This will give you a good idea of the sound of each mode. If you don't have a keyboard you'll need to generate the C using another method.

I'd take it another step further since against a drone you have about 140 notes that work (inclusing micro tonal stuff) or 12 in western equal temperament.
The thing is that a drone don't care whether you imply it to be minor or major, etc...and if we'd talk about Indian music where you don't have harmony like in Western it'd make sense. But in our case the modes are there to navigate changes.
And the easiest way I found to look at it was from the IV-V of a chord against a bass note...
i.e. if you have a F major triad to a G major triad against an D bass note you have the IV/V of C major against the ii of C major (dorian).
Where as F-G over A would make it A aeolian, F-G over E phrygian, F-G over F lydian, over G mixolydian, etc...

Try it it might shine a new light on mode usage. For my money I prefer to look at everything keycenter, i.e. playing A dorian or E aeolian are the same notes (G major scale) and only the avoid stuff changes...

 

[degenaro]

Knowing what mode I'm using is secondary to me and not as important in the sense that I'm thinking ''OK, the chord changed to C so I'm in C lydian while I'm playing over a VIm IV IIm for instance. I think more in over the chord static phrasing now versus let the modes run their course as the chord tones change. I find this sounds too generic and doesn't have that certain oomph factor when you are improvising or constucting a solo. All the most interesting lines have those out notes leading to those chord changes (not all the time) that are not in your regular "scale". So you basically work off your chord tones and add whatever color or sound you want not necessarily using the specified mode. Your in a more intervallic mode of thinking.

Another advantage to this technique is that your not boxed in modal playing and when there is a chord that is not in the same key as you are used too and doesn't work, it is not a problem and you won't even blink when it comes up and you will be able to weave it in your general direction of where you want to go or your feel. I think its essential to have your modes down pat and are able to play them in every position on the neck in your sleep( positional playing and 3 note per string patterns) knowing the sounds and color each brings before experimenting with this way of playing. I'm just giving food for thought, that is all.

Well for that matter you might as well view everything falling into either a tonic or a subdominant family by how they fuinction and then learn lines. I.e. a line that works over a ii, or IV will sure as hell work over a V or vii. Just like a line for a I will work over a vi or iii.

 

[ttosh]

I use a lot of different (what I call techniques) for practicing modes, doing straight modes in a scale, doing all modes in a key, doing a mode in 9,9,9 or 9,6,6, type technique (which is using the first 9 notes in the modal position, going to the next mode but staying positioned for the initial mode to work my way up the fretboard) all of this is good in theory and for practice for me. When playing this helps me visualize what I want to do better, at least I feel it does.

What are some of the ways you guys practice your modes versus actually applying them in playing and how much attention do you pay to modes when actually improvising versus writing a planned solo to a song of yours?

Drone baby drone. For instance, use a keyboard to play and indefinitely sustain a "C." Now, play C Ionian, Dorian, Phyrgian, Lydian ...etc. This will give you a good idea of the sound of each mode. If you don't have a keyboard you'll need to generate the C using another method.

I'd take it another step further since against a drone you have about 140 notes that work (inclusing micro tonal stuff) or 12 in western equal temperament.
The thing is that a drone don't care whether you imply it to be minor or major, etc...and if we'd talk about Indian music where you don't have harmony like in Western it'd make sense. But in our case the modes are there to navigate changes.
And the easiest way I found to look at it was from the IV-V of a chord against a bass note...
i.e. if you have a F major triad to a G major triad against an D bass note you have the IV/V of C major against the ii of C major (dorian).
Where as F-G over A would make it A aeolian, F-G over E phrygian, F-G over F lydian, over G mixolydian, etc...

Try it it might shine a new light on mode usage. For my money I prefer to look at everything keycenter, i.e. playing A dorian or E aeolian are the same notes (G major scale) and only the avoid stuff changes...

This makes a lot of sense to me. I must nap now.

 

[War Admiral]

Knowing what mode I'm using is secondary to me and not as important in the sense that I'm thinking ''OK, the chord changed to C so I'm in C lydian while I'm playing over a VIm IV IIm for instance. I think more in over the chord static phrasing now versus let the modes run their course as the chord tones change. I find this sounds too generic and doesn't have that certain oomph factor when you are improvising or constucting a solo. All the most interesting lines have those out notes leading to those chord changes (not all the time) that are not in your regular "scale". So you basically work off your chord tones and add whatever color or sound you want not necessarily using the specified mode. Your in a more intervallic mode of thinking.

Another advantage to this technique is that your not boxed in modal playing and when there is a chord that is not in the same key as you are used too and doesn't work, it is not a problem and you won't even blink when it comes up and you will be able to weave it in your general direction of where you want to go or your feel. I think its essential to have your modes down pat and are able to play them in every position on the neck in your sleep( positional playing and 3 note per string patterns) knowing the sounds and color each brings before experimenting with this way of playing. I'm just giving food for thought, that is all.

Well for that matter you might as well view everything falling into either a tonic or a subdominant family by how they fuinction and then learn lines. I.e. a line that works over a ii, or IV will sure as hell work over a V or vii. Just like a line for a I will work over a vi or iii.

Thats about it. Thats how I look at it now...its much less restricting for me this way as before when I was first learning modes. Someone who has a good knowledge of theory like ourselves can understand this in a simple statement like you just said but I took the long way to try to make it clear to someone that is still in the modal stages of thinking. I hoped it helped a bit.

 

[amiller]

I use a lot of different (what I call techniques) for practicing modes, doing straight modes in a scale, doing all modes in a key, doing a mode in 9,9,9 or 9,6,6, type technique (which is using the first 9 notes in the modal position, going to the next mode but staying positioned for the initial mode to work my way up the fretboard) all of this is good in theory and for practice for me. When playing this helps me visualize what I want to do better, at least I feel it does.

What are some of the ways you guys practice your modes versus actually applying them in playing and how much attention do you pay to modes when actually improvising versus writing a planned solo to a song of yours?

Drone baby drone. For instance, use a keyboard to play and indefinitely sustain a "C." Now, play C Ionian, Dorian, Phyrgian, Lydian ...etc. This will give you a good idea of the sound of each mode. If you don't have a keyboard you'll need to generate the C using another method.

I'd take it another step further since against a drone you have about 140 notes that work (inclusing micro tonal stuff) or 12 in western equal temperament.
The thing is that a drone don't care whether you imply it to be minor or major, etc...and if we'd talk about Indian music where you don't have harmony like in Western it'd make sense. But in our case the modes are there to navigate changes.
And the easiest way I found to look at it was from the IV-V of a chord against a bass note...
i.e. if you have a F major triad to a G major triad against an D bass note you have the IV/V of C major against the ii of C major (dorian).
Where as F-G over A would make it A aeolian, F-G over E phrygian, F-G over F lydian, over G mixolydian, etc...

Try it it might shine a new light on mode usage. For my money I prefer to look at everything keycenter, i.e. playing A dorian or E aeolian are the same notes (G major scale) and only the avoid stuff changes...

Hey, I like that. I'll poke around with it over the weekend...thanks!

 

[degenaro]

Knowing what mode I'm using is secondary to me and not as important in the sense that I'm thinking ''OK, the chord changed to C so I'm in C lydian while I'm playing over a VIm IV IIm for instance. I think more in over the chord static phrasing now versus let the modes run their course as the chord tones change. I find this sounds too generic and doesn't have that certain oomph factor when you are improvising or constucting a solo. All the most interesting lines have those out notes leading to those chord changes (not all the time) that are not in your regular "scale". So you basically work off your chord tones and add whatever color or sound you want not necessarily using the specified mode. Your in a more intervallic mode of thinking.

Another advantage to this technique is that your not boxed in modal playing and when there is a chord that is not in the same key as you are used too and doesn't work, it is not a problem and you won't even blink when it comes up and you will be able to weave it in your general direction of where you want to go or your feel. I think its essential to have your modes down pat and are able to play them in every position on the neck in your sleep( positional playing and 3 note per string patterns) knowing the sounds and color each brings before experimenting with this way of playing. I'm just giving food for thought, that is all.

Well for that matter you might as well view everything falling into either a tonic or a subdominant family by how they fuinction and then learn lines. I.e. a line that works over a ii, or IV will sure as hell work over a V or vii. Just like a line for a I will work over a vi or iii.

Thats about it. Thats how I look at it now...its much less restricting for me this way as before when I was first learning modes. Someone who has a good knowledge of theory like ourselves can understand this in a simple statement like you just said but I took the long way to try to make it clear to someone that is still in the modal stages of thinking. I hoped it helped a bit.

The issue with mos "student" level players "thinking" they use modes is this...they run a say C major scale at the 10th position from D to D and call it D dorian. Root running a scale doesn't imply a harmony. Knowing that dorian is root, 2, b3, 4, 5, 6, b7 makes for knowledge of working notes.
What makes it dorian is the same concept that makes a major key a major key...harmonic function. As in subdominant to dominant to tonic. And then using the "correct" set of notes over it.

 

[War Admiral]

Knowing what mode I'm using is secondary to me and not as important in the sense that I'm thinking ''OK, the chord changed to C so I'm in C lydian while I'm playing over a VIm IV IIm for instance. I think more in over the chord static phrasing now versus let the modes run their course as the chord tones change. I find this sounds too generic and doesn't have that certain oomph factor when you are improvising or constucting a solo. All the most interesting lines have those out notes leading to those chord changes (not all the time) that are not in your regular "scale". So you basically work off your chord tones and add whatever color or sound you want not necessarily using the specified mode. Your in a more intervallic mode of thinking.

Another advantage to this technique is that your not boxed in modal playing and when there is a chord that is not in the same key as you are used too and doesn't work, it is not a problem and you won't even blink when it comes up and you will be able to weave it in your general direction of where you want to go or your feel. I think its essential to have your modes down pat and are able to play them in every position on the neck in your sleep( positional playing and 3 note per string patterns) knowing the sounds and color each brings before experimenting with this way of playing. I'm just giving food for thought, that is all.

Well for that matter you might as well view everything falling into either a tonic or a subdominant family by how they fuinction and then learn lines. I.e. a line that works over a ii, or IV will sure as hell work over a V or vii. Just like a line for a I will work over a vi or iii.

Thats about it. Thats how I look at it now...its much less restricting for me this way as before when I was first learning modes. Someone who has a good knowledge of theory like ourselves can understand this in a simple statement like you just said but I took the long way to try to make it clear to someone that is still in the modal stages of thinking. I hoped it helped a bit.

The issue with mos "student" level players "thinking" they use modes is this...they run a say C major scale at the 10th position from D to D and call it D dorian. Root running a scale doesn't imply a harmony. Knowing that dorian is root, 2, b3, 4, 5, 6, b7 makes for knowledge of working notes.
What makes it dorian is the same concept that makes a major key a major key...harmonic function. As in subdominant to dominant to tonic. And then using the "correct" set of notes over it.

Exactly Ed. Thats what I was saying in my first post...I think we all kinda did that when we started. Run up and down the scale using our ear to guide us to which notes work and which notes don't while the chords change. Kind of wandering around going with the flow. The point being is your letting the mouvement control you rather than you controlling it. Establishing harmony and manipulating it in your style is where you start taking control of your instrument and developing a voice. Much more difficult but more rewarding in the long run. Still an on going quest for myself and most likely be for the rest of my life.

 

[reliable]

I wish In Flames used my stuff! Dave King of Belladonna has a modded 5150, Paul Bento of Carnivore and Brooklyn Army Militia has a modded 6505+, Eric Jarrin of Despised Icon has a modded 5150, Earth Crisis rented my modded 5150 for their last CD, and From A Second Story Window rented my modded 5150 for their Delenda CD.






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[dfrattaroli]

I'd take it another step further since against a drone you have about 140 notes that work (inclusing micro tonal stuff) or 12 in western equal temperament.
The thing is that a drone don't care whether you imply it to be minor or major, etc...and if we'd talk about Indian music where you don't have harmony like in Western it'd make sense. But in our case the modes are there to navigate changes.
And the easiest way I found to look at it was from the IV-V of a chord against a bass note...
i.e. if you have a F major triad to a G major triad against an D bass note you have the IV/V of C major against the ii of C major (dorian).
Where as F-G over A would make it A aeolian, F-G over E phrygian, F-G over F lydian, over G mixolydian, etc...

Try it it might shine a new light on mode usage. For my money I prefer to look at everything keycenter, i.e. playing A dorian or E aeolian are the same notes (G major scale) and only the avoid stuff changes...

This is really interesting. I can "see" just from this description that the IV/V would be constant whereas the bass note would vary. I see the bass note as the "drone" here. And, that you could basically, just play a C Major scale over the IV/V and bass note, and as the bass note changes, so would the mode. Where as with the conventional "drone" approach (just one single note, say C), you'd actually have to change modes as you play over it to cycle through the modes (ie: play the C Ionian shape,then the C Dorian, C Phrygian, etc). Am I getting that right?

And if I wanted to take it further, instead of the F/G over say, a D bass, I could do a iii/vi (Em, Am) over the same D bass note and still be Dorian, correct?

 

[dfrattaroli]

I just recorded a sample of what I think Ed was describing. One guitar track playing IV/V, bass playing ii. I added a solo track where I'm playing in B Major. Synth track is just doing ii, alternating IV/V.

My guitar/bass are tuned to Eb so ii is C#, IV is E and V is F#.

Ed are you saying if I just changed the bass note to a different degree in B Major like in your description, that I'd be changing the mode? While everything else being played remains the same?

Thanks.

Dave

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