Modes - The Flats and Sharps

[amiller]

Ionian (major) - 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 --- (naturals relative to the key)
Dorian - 1 2 b3 4 5 6 b7 --- (b3 b7)
Phyrgian - 1 b2 b3 4 5 b6 b7 --- (b2 b3 b6 b7)
Lydian - 1 2 3 #4 5 6 7 --- (#4)
Mixolydian - 1 2 3 4 5 6 b7 --- (b7)
Aeolian (natural minor) - 1 2 b3 4 5 b6 b7 --- (b3 b6 b7)
Locrian - 1 b2 b3 4 b5 b6 b7 --- (b2 b3 b5 b6 b7)

 

[FIREBALL]

then if u make a lick in major skip dorian and play the same lick in the phrygian box shape.you then have hamonized it in major and minor 3rds. any time u make a lick up in a mode skip the next box and use every other box...stack as us u like....harmonizing in fourths would be to skip 2 boxes, 5ths would be 3...this is an easy way for a beginner to start to harmonize

 

[ttosh]

This is in context to the key of CMaj/AMin, correct.

Ionian (major) - no sharps or flats
Dorian - b3, b7
Phyrgian - b2, b3, b6, b7
Lydian - #4
Mixolydian - b7
Aeolian (natural minor) - b3, b6, b7
Locrian - b2, b3, b5, b6, b7

 

[amiller]

This is in context to the key of CMaj/AMin, correct.

Ionian (major) - no (additional) sharps or flats
Dorian - b3, b7
Phyrgian - b2, b3, b6, b7
Lydian - #4
Mixolydian - b7
Aeolian (natural minor) - b3, b6, b7
Locrian - b2, b3, b5, b6, b7

No, this is in context to what is done to any beginning key in order to yield the desired mode. For instance, the key of G major (Ionian) has an F# so you don't sharp or flat anything else to yield Ionian, however, in G mixolydian you flat the 7th.

G Ionian - G A B C D E F# G
G Mixolydian - G A B C D E F G

 

[War Admiral]

This is in context to the key of CMaj/AMin, correct.

Ionian (major) - no (additional) sharps or flats
Dorian - b3, b7
Phyrgian - b2, b3, b6, b7
Lydian - #4
Mixolydian - b7
Aeolian (natural minor) - b3, b6, b7
Locrian - b2, b3, b5, b6, b7

No, this is in context to what is done to any beginning key in order to yield the desired mode. For instance, the key of G major (Ionian) has an F# so you don't sharp or flat anything else to yield Ionian, however, in G mixolydian you flat the 7th.

G Ionian - G A B C D E F# G
G Mixolydian - G A B C D E F G

This is right but just worded bad...the first line should of said naturals relative to the key instead of no additional sharps or flats. This is what throws people off.
Its just intervals.

 

[amiller]

...
This is right but just worded bad...the first line should of said naturals relative to the key instead of no additional sharps or flats. This is what throws people off.
Its just intervals.

Agreed...

 

[ttosh]

Okay thanks for the clarification.

This is in context to the key of CMaj/AMin, correct.

Ionian (major) - no (additional) sharps or flats
Dorian - b3, b7
Phyrgian - b2, b3, b6, b7
Lydian - #4
Mixolydian - b7
Aeolian (natural minor) - b3, b6, b7
Locrian - b2, b3, b5, b6, b7

No, this is in context to what is done to any beginning key in order to yield the desired mode. For instance, the key of G major (Ionian) has an F# so you don't sharp or flat anything else to yield Ionian, however, in G mixolydian you flat the 7th.

G Ionian - G A B C D E F# G
G Mixolydian - G A B C D E F G

 

[Dallas Marlow]

This is a really good post... question for you guys, how often do you all actually use a "specific" mode because technically speaking ideally your playing chords that fit in the modes context as well. The reason for knowing whether it's a b3 b7 or #4 etc., is so you can designate in a specific key which notes change in each specific chord.

Unlike a sax or any horn for that matter, I find it to be rather cumbersome on guitar to think of every mode as for lack of a better term a formula since you have so many variations and scale forms on the guitar, I mean hell on damn near any guitar (barring weird acoustics) you have 5 middle C's for christs sake, so every time you play a form/shape/pattern/scale/notes whatever you have to be able to do that in quite a few positions and effectively modulate that scale all through out the guitar (ideally that is). Even on piano you've got the exact same repeating patterns and it's much easier to visualize a mode, at least for me than it is on guitar to look at it and see the notes I need to hit, and then think ok this is 1-3-5 of said chord and the 3 of this chord is flat in this mode and so on that becomes a real bitch man.

So I guess my question is what tools/utilities do you guys use to overcome this other than just shear memorization and practice? I'm in school for this stuff, and from what I can tell it's just working you ass off if you really want to have mastery of the tools while improving you know?

Many times when soloing over something it's just easy to think of for example D-Dorian as playing a C major pattern where D is the root, the problem with this is obviously I'm no longer thinking the notes just playing off muscle memory patterns and losing all conceptual knowledge of actually playing over a chord progression.

Thoughts?

Dallas

 

[War Admiral]

This is a really good post... question for you guys, how often do you all actually use a "specific" mode because technically speaking ideally your playing chords that fit in the modes context as well. The reason for knowing whether it's a b3 b7 or #4 etc., is so you can designate in a specific key which notes change in each specific chord.

Unlike a sax or any horn for that matter, I find it to be rather cumbersome on guitar to think of every mode as for lack of a better term a formula since you have so many variations and scale forms on the guitar, I mean hell on damn near any guitar (barring weird acoustics) you have 5 middle C's for christs sake, so every time you play a form/shape/pattern/scale/notes whatever you have to be able to do that in quite a few positions and effectively modulate that scale all through out the guitar (ideally that is). Even on piano you've got the exact same repeating patterns and it's much easier to visualize a mode, at least for me than it is on guitar to look at it and see the notes I need to hit, and then think ok this is 1-3-5 of said chord and the 3 of this chord is flat in this mode and so on that becomes a real bitch man.

So I guess my question is what tools/utilities do you guys use to overcome this other than just shear memorization and practice? I'm in school for this stuff, and from what I can tell it's just working you ass off if you really want to have mastery of the tools while improving you know?

Many times when soloing over something it's just easy to think of for example D-Dorian as playing a C major pattern where D is the root, the problem with this is obviously I'm no longer thinking the notes just playing off muscle memory patterns and losing all conceptual knowledge of actually playing over a chord progression.

Thoughts?

Dallas

This is a good question. I'll quote something I said in another thread which I think is valid here...

''Now just keep going up through all the chords. Always try to be aware of where you are with your arpeggio in relation to your parent scale. So as soon as you want to bust out of your arpeggio pattern you know exactly where the scale is. If your in the Dorian(m7) or Phrygian(m7) or Lydian(Maj7) etc. follow? You will always have your options layed out for you this way and will never be lost!!''

Now these are 7th chord arps but are still relative to your point. If you take just the basic chord shapes which they're are not many...I'm just talking about the simple major and minor shapes that start either on the 6th string ot the 5th string. As you go through the chords...ie. major, minor, minor, major major, minor and minor b5. You have to be aware where you are in relation to the scale....that is if you have a major chord shape and say its the 5th (V) chord of G which is D...it should be automatic for you to know that Mixolydian scale pattern on that D major chord shape that you are playing. This goes for the other 6 chords. Its not that many to memorize...its all the same after no matter what key you are in. This is basic fretboard knowledge that is always good to know especially starting from the 6th and 5th strings. 3 note per string and the chord position patterns for each mode. Comes in real handy when you want to play off a chord shape...you always know where you are and even when you don't, you can hit pretty well any note because you know your mode patterns from the chord shape you are playing. At least you will be in key.

This is what I've done and works quite well. I've never got any complaints yet when I'm sitting in an improvised setting where there is nothing rehearsed. Works well in studio situations also when you are spitting out ideas for the customer.

 

[Dallas Marlow]

This is a good question. I'll quote something I said in another thread which I think is valid here...

''Now just keep going up through all the chords. Always try to be aware of where you are with your arpeggio in relation to your parent scale. So as soon as you want to bust out of your arpeggio pattern you know exactly where the scale is. If your in the Dorian(m7) or Phrygian(m7) or Lydian(Maj7) etc. follow? You will always have your options layed out for you this way and will never be lost!!''

Now these are 7th chord arps but are still relative to your point. If you take just the basic chord shapes which they're are not many...I'm just talking about the simple major and minor shapes that start either on the 6th string ot the 5th string. As you go through the chords...ie. major, minor, minor, major major, minor and minor b5. You have to be aware where you are in relation to the scale....that is if you have a major chord shape and say its the 5th (V) chord of G which is D...it should be automatic for you to know that Mixolydian scale pattern on that D major chord shape that you are playing. This goes for the other 6 chords. Its not that many to memorize...its all the same after no matter what key you are in. This is basic fretboard knowledge that is always good to know especially starting from the 6th and 5th strings. 3 note per string and the chord position patterns for each mode. Comes in real handy when you want to play off a chord shape...you always know where you are and even when you don't, you can hit pretty well any note because you know your mode patterns from the chord shape you are playing. At least you will be in key.

While I'm tired this is good info and I'm going to have to re-read it when I'm in more of a learning awake state of mind haha... The only issue I kind of take to it is that while knowing that your playing a V over a particular scale puts you into MyxL it helps to know what mode your in by a round about way, which is great, all those kind of tools prove useful and effective I don't know that knowing that in and of it self really helps on an individual note relationship level. That entire sentence is a total run on and probably makes no sense, but my concern is I personally believe it to be a bit of a dangerous pitfall to be thinking of 3 note chord patterns and the like because it can be limiting if you don't force your self to expand upon it you know? I'm trying to avoid thinking in just patterns at this point, all though it's my first instinct and the easiest way by far for me to learn, it doesn't really TEACH me the note relationships and best resolutions etc... I'm tired and make no sense.

 

[ttosh]

I really like the way he explains things in this video, it may or may not help in regards to this for each of you, but I got a few things out of it.

 

[War Admiral]

This is a good question. I'll quote something I said in another thread which I think is valid here...

''Now just keep going up through all the chords. Always try to be aware of where you are with your arpeggio in relation to your parent scale. So as soon as you want to bust out of your arpeggio pattern you know exactly where the scale is. If your in the Dorian(m7) or Phrygian(m7) or Lydian(Maj7) etc. follow? You will always have your options layed out for you this way and will never be lost!!''

Now these are 7th chord arps but are still relative to your point. If you take just the basic chord shapes which they're are not many...I'm just talking about the simple major and minor shapes that start either on the 6th string ot the 5th string. As you go through the chords...ie. major, minor, minor, major major, minor and minor b5. You have to be aware where you are in relation to the scale....that is if you have a major chord shape and say its the 5th (V) chord of G which is D...it should be automatic for you to know that Mixolydian scale pattern on that D major chord shape that you are playing. This goes for the other 6 chords. Its not that many to memorize...its all the same after no matter what key you are in. This is basic fretboard knowledge that is always good to know especially starting from the 6th and 5th strings. 3 note per string and the chord position patterns for each mode. Comes in real handy when you want to play off a chord shape...you always know where you are and even when you don't, you can hit pretty well any note because you know your mode patterns from the chord shape you are playing. At least you will be in key.

While I'm tired this is good info and I'm going to have to re-read it when I'm in more of a learning awake state of mind haha... The only issue I kind of take to it is that while knowing that your playing a V over a particular scale puts you into MyxL it helps to know what mode your in by a round about way, which is great, all those kind of tools prove useful and effective I don't know that knowing that in and of it self really helps on an individual note relationship level. That entire sentence is a total run on and probably makes no sense, but my concern is I personally believe it to be a bit of a dangerous pitfall to be thinking of 3 note chord patterns and the like because it can be limiting if you don't force your self to expand upon it you know? I'm trying to avoid thinking in just patterns at this point, all though it's my first instinct and the easiest way by far for me to learn, it doesn't really TEACH me the note relationships and best resolutions etc... I'm tired and make no sense.

I hear what you're saying about falling into pitfalls but I'm not talking about patterns in the sense of..''Ok, I'm going to go up this pattern or down or whatever'' I'm talking about knowing where the notes are...not doing a pattern of notes. Once you know where the notes are...its up to you what you do with them. If you have a bad habit you will have to break it to make something sound fresh. Thats what rut busters are for. Allan Holdsworth said this once and it always stuck in my head...''When the chord changes the fretboard lights up with led's to which notes will work over that chord'' he meant this figuretively of course but that really was a revelation to me. Those notes are merely tools and what you do with them is up to you. Technique comes into play here as well as how you hear things in your head...

 

[Kaleiwahea]

Ionian (major) - 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 --- (naturals relative to the key)
Dorian - 1 2 b3 4 5 6 b7 --- (b3 b7)
Phyrgian - 1 b2 b3 4 5 b6 b7 --- (b2 b3 b6 b7)
Lydian - 1 2 3 #4 5 6 7 --- (#4)
Mixolydian - 1 2 3 4 5 6 b7 --- (b7)
Aeolian (natural minor) - 1 2 b3 4 5 b6 b7 --- (b3 b6 b7)
Locrian - 1 b2 b3 4 b5 b6 b7 --- (b2 b3 b5 b6 b7)

I'd like to add this - it may help someone understand modes better...
Notice the inervals between teh notes (W = Whole, H = Half)

Ionian (major) - 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 --- (naturals relative to the key) W W H W W W
Dorian - 1 2 b3 4 5 6 b7 --- (b3 b7) W H W W W H
Phyrgian - 1 b2 b3 4 5 b6 b7 --- (b2 b3 b6 b7) H W W W H W
Lydian - 1 2 3 #4 5 6 7 --- (#4) W W W H W H
Mixolydian - 1 2 3 4 5 6 b7 --- (b7) W W H W W H
Aeolian (natural minor) - 1 2 b3 4 5 b6 b7 --- (b3 b6 b7) W H W W H W
Locrian - 1 b2 b3 4 b5 b6 b7 --- (b2 b3 b5 b6 b7 H W W H W W

I purposely shifted them over to show that the intervals all line up. Hope that shreds some light.....

Another way to look at it,
G major, but if you begin and end on the A's (in parenthesis) it's A Dorian.

-----2-3----(5)----------------
--------3----5----------------
----(2)----4-5----------------
------2----4-5-----------------
------2-3----5--------------------
-------3----(5)--------------

Same position, start and end on B's - it's now B Phrygian.

Of course, that works for all modes

 

[Jimmie]

Ionian (major) - 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 --- (naturals relative to the key)
Dorian - 1 2 b3 4 5 6 b7 --- (b3 b7)
Phyrgian - 1 b2 b3 4 5 b6 b7 --- (b2 b3 b6 b7)
Lydian - 1 2 3 #4 5 6 7 --- (#4)
Mixolydian - 1 2 3 4 5 6 b7 --- (b7)
Aeolian (natural minor) - 1 2 b3 4 5 b6 b7 --- (b3 b6 b7)
Locrian - 1 b2 b3 4 b5 b6 b7 --- (b2 b3 b5 b6 b7)

I'd like to add this - it may help someone understand modes better...
Notice the inervals between teh notes (W = Whole, H = Half)

Ionian (major) - 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 --- (naturals relative to the key) W W H W W W
Dorian - 1 2 b3 4 5 6 b7 --- (b3 b7) W H W W W H
Phyrgian - 1 b2 b3 4 5 b6 b7 --- (b2 b3 b6 b7) H W W W H W
Lydian - 1 2 3 #4 5 6 7 --- (#4) W W W H W H
Mixolydian - 1 2 3 4 5 6 b7 --- (b7) W W H W W H
Aeolian (natural minor) - 1 2 b3 4 5 b6 b7 --- (b3 b6 b7) W H W W H W
Locrian - 1 b2 b3 4 b5 b6 b7 --- (b2 b3 b5 b6 b7 H W W H W W

I purposely shifted them over to show that the intervals all line up. Hope that shreds some light.....

Another way to look at it,
G major, but if you begin and end on the A's (in parenthesis) it's A Dorian.

-----2-3----(5)----------------
--------3----5----------------
----(2)----4-5----------------
------2----4-5-----------------
------2-3----5--------------------
-------3----(5)--------------

Same position, start and end on B's - it's now B Phrygian.

Of course, that works for all modes

thats the way I was taught, except 3 notes per string ala the Gilbert school of thought

-------------(5)--6-----9-----
--------------5---6-----9-----
----------4---5-----7-----------
----------4---5-----7-----------
-------3-----5------7-----------
-------3----(5)-----7---------

 

[Kaleiwahea]

correct, 'cept the 1st and 2nd string should be fretted 578 578

 

[Jimmie]

correct, 'cept the 1st and 2nd string should be fretted 578 578

In Standard tuning, 578 would start out the A dorian shape.

 

[degenaro]

Except without a defining harmony there is no difference.

In order for something to be say G major it'd be the G major scale played against a progression like G-C/G-D/G

Now play the same scale against Am7 to D and it will sound dorian. This is assuming you have enough a handle on the usage that you won't be humping the c note against the G chord etc...

Go look at Gambale's Modes No More Mystery. Because everyhting else id just patterns with no meaning.