easstudios
Well-known member
Agree with the whole post above, but especially be wary of this - some of the Suhr units can be fussy with what they're being driven into. I believe John Suhr runs his into an instrument input IIRC?
ZEN Amps
Well-known member
Yeah the original non-IR Suhr load has a high output Z (~5k from memory) so doesn't work well with the line input of many devices. Inst inputs have a much higher input Z so are generally the best choice, mic the worst.
I'm not convinced this is well-known amongst users, and I don't recall seeing it in the manual. The line input of a typical mic/line preamp, recording interface or even some power amps are far from optimal which would affect frequency response. I don't think this is the cause of the issue mentioned in this thread but it's worth being aware of.
easstudios
Well-known member
Yeah its not often spoken about - on the non IR version, the outputs are 6k Ohm which is a bit close to 10k (most common for line ins) to not enounter impedance issues. Mic amps are generally even lower. The IR version of the Suhr is (a more common) 600 ohm which is ideal for 10k line inputs. No idea what made them use such a weird level.
Jccobb2
Active member
TheGreatGreen
Well-known member
Some people were talking about this on another forum recently.
One person recommended to not use the Suhr's direct out jack, but instead running your amp through a separate dedicated line out device with the Suhr acting as the cabinet to provide the impedance curve, but ultimately using the audio from the Line Out device instead.
DECEMBER
New member
I have a 3-amp, 5-speaker, 9-mic stereo wet/dry/wet rig that I've recreated with IRs that I made of my speakers. Using a Behringer UMC1820 interface plus ADA8200 ADAT preamps (8) expansion. I don't need to use the line out on the load box with the Mark V, it has a slave out, but I've checked and all outputs (MkV slave, SRL XLR & 1/4") sound exactly the same and all change the same with the connected load.
When my speakers are still connected, and/or connected to the Thru on the load, the slave/line outs -> IRs sound great, very close to the mic'd speaker sound. But unplug the speakers and just use the internal load and it gets all scooped and boomy. I've gone thru every single IR available in the TwoNotes Wall of Sound plugin and I bought the one that sounds best to me, but it's still pretty bad. They're all really harsh, boxy, and most have too much bass (even without load boxes, just using the FX send). I've tried many IRs, floor modelers, modeling amps, and analog cab sim devices... I couldn't stand any of them. The IRs I made are the first ones I would actually be satisfied with using in a song that I would share publicly. But the excessive bassy scooped sound of the SRL and X-Load UK voicing are really difficult to work with.
I have 3 load boxes now, because I need 3 to recreate the 3-amp rig. The X-Load UK voicing is almost identical to the Suhr: scooped and bass-heavy, but the US voicing is better, good amount of bass, still fairly scooped, but not terribly. That's strange to me because UK voiced speakers/amps I've used or heard online have all had a mid-focused sound, exaggerated mids, while US voiced speakers/amps usually have a more scooped sound with more bass. But the X-Load UK and SRL ("Greenbacks") are the most bass-heavy and scooped of them all.
I also got a Rivera Mini Rock Rec. This one has a flatter sound: more mids, less bass, but kinda dark, not too much better than the IRs sound when I just send the FX send to them.
I've listened to some comparisons online with the THD Hot Plate, which also sounds dark and boxy, closer to the Rock Rec than the SRL or XL.
I wish something would be somewhere between the SRL and the Rock Rec, or just sound the same way it does when actual speakers are the load. Well, V30 and/or MC-90 or Jensen Tornado Stealth 80 make the slave out sound great. An old Celestion G12P-80 Line 6 stock speaker makes it sound thin and weak (like those speakers do sound).
I haven't compared any load to more than 2 speakers connected to one amp, but I'm gonna try it today, run the slave out with 4 8 ohm speakers on the Mark V.
It also is only like that with the Mark V... With the SRL on the Carvin V3 or Line 6 Flextone III XL solid-state power amp, it's not so bass-heavy. I tried EL34's in the Mark V and it made no difference to the general sound of the load.
There aren't really many options left for me to try. I don't need an IR loader or attenuator, so I don't wanna spend $600+. There's a Hot Plate for $300 right now. There's the Audiostorm Reactive Loaf for $200 shipped from UK. It has Inductance and Damping switches to change the voicing. The builder dropped their link on my post on FB, but they won't answer any of my questions about it on the post or in direct messages thru Reverb. If you want me to buy your device from overseas, you're gonna have to answer some questions. They talked down about the Julius Music Box Amp Pad "reactive load", which is just a coil of wire and small heat sink in a box. So I asked for a pic of the guts of their load box to see how it differs... Probably not by much if they won't show me.
Then the Weber Mass is all touchy and sensitive about being overpowered, says it's 100W but that it can't take more than 60W. Then there's the Tru-load, which is out of stock (even though they don't make their stuff until you order it, so I guess they just don't make it anymore?). I emailed them almost a week ago and no reply. So many businesses are such a joke these days.
And, of course, in all of Portland, OR and surrounding suburbs, there is not one load nox available in any of the many music gear stores, so I gotta deal with the waiting game of ordering online. The SRL had free 2-day shipping, but it took 6 days to get it here. I paid $62 for priority mail for the X-Load (4 days from coast to coast), but they lagged a day before sending it out, and then July 4th and Sunday were that week, so it took 7 days. Now I only have 8 days left to return the SRL, so I don't even know if I would get something else in time to compare it with the SRL before making a decision to return or not...
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Eazy-ESP
Well-known member
Dude! Insert a line between paragraphs. That is unreadable.
DECEMBER
New member
So I hooked up an 8 ohm 4x12 (2 V30's, MC-90, Jensen Tornado Stealth 80) and recorded the same riff on the same exact settings (Mark V -> slave out -> DAW/IRs) with each different load (only thing changed is the load: 4x12 cab, Suhr RL, X-Load, Mini Rock Rec).
The SRL sounds the most different from the real 4x12 load (less mids, more bass, darker but with a harsh treble).
The X-Load UK voicing is almost identical to the SRL, but doesn't sound so smothered. The US voicing is closer to the 4x12, but still more scooped.
The Rock Rec is a bit too flat (similar to how the IRs sound with the FX send), too middy, kinda boxy and dark.
The closest to the 4x12 was when I put the X-Load and Rock Rec in parallel in the 4 ohm outputs on the amp. But damn, that's $600 of loads to get one amp sounding best.
I'm putting together an audio file of the comparison clips, I'll post the link here when I get it on SoundCloud.
acceptance
Well-known member
What do you recommend? Like December I feel the suhr is bad bass heavy and mid scooped.
ZEN Amps
Well-known member
I agree with all of this: https://www.rig-talk.com/forum/threads/what-impulse-responses-do-you-recommend.303468/post-3881487
Ok yeah, that's a solid way to test things.
Not sure man - in theory, the SRL 'should' sound close to the cab. Actually it's more than a theory, I've used and tested the Suhr as you did with fairly transparent results. The fact that the Fractal performs similarly is not surprising, it should - but it does suggest there is no fault with the SRL.
Sounds like there's an issue (or a few) somewhere, but hard to help remotely. It would probably take a few hours of testing and measuring in person to figure this one out. Buying more loads isn't the answer though I'm afraid, there's very likely something going on that needs attention.
Out of interest, how are you connecting the SRL to your interface? Did you look into the possible impedance mismatch information I forwarded?
DECEMBER
New member
I use the slave out from the amp, not the outputs on the boxes. But I have compared the slave out to the Suhr XLR and 1/4" outs and they all sound exactly the same, just the unbalanced out on SRL needs way more gain on the interface.
The X-Load, as well, but that one has the powered XLR output, which adds noise. Too much noise with phantom power, less with a line isolator to block the phantom power and an 18V Dunlop adapter. The signal is much stronger, needs much less gain, but is hissy. And the unbalanced out needs too much gain, so I just use the slave out from the amp. It's 1/4", too, but has a much stronger signal than either of the 1/4" outs on the boxes. They also need the line isolators to add a ground lift to cut the hum. The slave out doesn't hum.
I think something about the way the Mark V reacts is exacerbating the heavy-bass. It isn't near as boomy on a Carvin V3 or Line 6 Flextone solid-state power amp, but is still quite scooped and sounds buried when ran in stereo with the X-Load as the other channel. But it's only with the SRL and X-Load UK voicing, the 4x12 cab, US voicing, and Rock Rec don't have the excessive boomy bass.
DECEMBER
New member
Here's the audio clips:
soundcloud.com/matemberkins/reactive-load-comparisons
Comparing reactive load boxes. IRs were made of my speakers, running in the TwoNotes Wall of Sound plugin. Guitar is double-tracked, only thing that changes is the load. A cymbal hit indicates switching loads.
1: speakers recorded with mics
2: slave out -> IRs with speakers still connected as the load
3: Suhr RL
4: Fractal X-Load UK voicing
5: Fractal X-Load US voicing
6: Rivera Mini Rock Rec 8 ohms
7: Rivera Mini Rock Rec 4 ohms
Amp is a Mesa/Boogie Mark V, ch3 Mk II C+ mode with Friedman Buxom Boost in front, Ashly parametric EQ, Source Audio Ventris plate reverb, and BBE Sonic Stomp Pro in the loop.
Speakers are: left: Celestion V30 and MC-90
right: V30 and Jensen Tornado Stealth 80
2 mics each. IRs of each mic/speaker pair, so 4 IRs mixed in each channel to the same ratio I mix the mics when recording speakers. Same post-EQ/multiband comp on all tracks.
Guitar is a PRS SE Mira w/EMG 81X/60X, VMC, EXG, ABCX, and VLPF tone.
D'Addarrio 59 42 30 22w 16 12, drop-C @A=432Hz
errrrrl
Well-known member
Man thats interesting cause I've been doing something similar for the last months and am pretty pretty happy with the results.
Chain is Amp speaker out > Neves RNDI >
>Neves XLR out to interface then add IRs in daw
>Neves Speaker pass thru >Fryette PS100 > Bogner 1 x 12 with a CL80 in it
I dial in the amp thru the PS100 / Bogner cab then when I get a good tone I literally turn down the PS100 volume completely and silent record. Not sure if its better than my Suhr or Fryette cause I never compared but I find dialing in thru a speaker like the CL80 then adding IRs sounds better overall for me vs trying to dial in thru the Suhr RL and IRs.
Here is a clip / riff challenge I did today using my Sunn Enforcer with a Fortin modded TS9. I was digging the tones I got. -> https://u.pcloud.link/publink/show?code=XZ8G3g0Zu1sRCY2l1bjElq0qjekwg05cddqV
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DECEMBER
New member
My amp (Mark V) has a slave out. I hooked that up and the Suhr RL XLR and 1/4" outputs to the interface. They all sound exactly the same. The Suhr 1/4" is a much lower level signal and requires a lot more gain on the interface preamp, but they sound the same, and change the same when the load is changed.
The Fractal X-Load XLR is a much stronger signal than Suhr's XLR, because it's powered, but that makes it really noisy. With phantom power, it's intolerably hissy. Using an 18V power adapter and a line isolator to block the phantom power, it's better, still hissy but usable if necessary. But the 1/4" isn't hissy. It has a ground hum, but the line isolator has a ground lift and takes care of that. And again, these outputs sound the same as the slave output on the amp. But the slave is 1/4" yet a much hotter signal than either of the load box's 1/4" outs, and it doesn't hiss or need a line isolator to lift the ground.
ZEN Amps
Well-known member
@DECEMBER yeah I can hear the tonal shifts between loads, it's not subtle. I wish I could help but there must be a non-obvious (to me anyway) issue occurring in your setup. Good luck - don't forget to report back if you solve it.
I
iff
Member
Are those clips intentionally filtered to show the differences? If not, I'm gonna say you have another problem in your chain to figure out before worrying about the reactive loads...even the mic'ed clip sounds like one of those belt clip amps and I assume your Mark V doesn't actually sound like that in the room.