Digital Modelers vs Tube Amps

Well, you never have to touch any controls you don't care about. If you know what you want, you can dial up a sound as fast as you can with an analog rig. And if you run it through a good solid state amp and real cab, there's not much difference in the in-the-room tone either, and you don't have to deal with anything in the chain after the amp.
You guys have more complex setups than I do so it makes more sense for you. I use a guitar into OD into Twin vibrato channel input 1. I dime the volume and treble and everything else stays off. I don't think a modeler would be much quicker than that. Like a modeler it offers easy repeatability and is the most legendary blues amp ever created so it's a win-win for me.

Also if you have no use for the tools of satan then why are you on a high gain guitar forum in the first place? :D
Came for the unregulated OT and stayed because I fell in love with the people here.
 
I love tube amps and still have a Friedman. I play in a cover band where I need to cover songs recordered on Vox, Marshall, Boogies, Blackface, etc.

It is great using a Fractal for all the amp options, cabs, effects, and pitch changers for bands that tune down or use a capo.

The video below I am go through FOH and using Fender FR-12’s for stage volume.


Sounds great!
 
I have tons of pedals and effects but most of the time I just need my delay, reverb and clean boost/OD pedal and of course noise gate to reduce amp hiss.
 
Bands have always used tools live to improve their live performances. I think they're fine up to a point.

Once a band starts using backing tracks, pre-recorded parts, auto-tune, etc., I think it goes too far. I'll give a pass to a band that used an orchestra in the studio (e.g., ELP's Works; they toured with a full orchestra but it nearly bankrupted the band, so they had to drop it).

I've seen videos of bands that are a four piece (e.g., Pink Floyd), have so many extra musicians on stage that it ceased to be PF, and more like PF and friends. Female backing vocalists, special guest musician for a few songs, etc. fine; but extra guitarists, keys, etc., wtf? Who am I actually hearing?!

When I see a live show, I'm not looking for perfection nor am I hoping it sounds like I'm listening to the studio recording; I expect to hear the actual band, playing their actual instruments, playing their actual songs, as best they can in a live setting without extra help and tools that are used as crutches to deal with their shortcomings live.
I have heard too many bands that could nail ot live. Kansas sounded just like the record. Rush, well it was end of tour and geddy wasnt hitting notes.
Say whatever you want about modeling, but one angle I don't see discussed all that often about great modelers is how much they can teach you about guitar tone in general.

Diving into Fractal's ecosystem has taught me 10x more about guitar tone than all the forums reading and music store jamming I've ever done combined. Most people will never have anything close to a decked out studio full of the best gear money can buy, all cabled up and integrated into a completely functional switching system so you can truly compare apples to apples and learn how guitar tone is actually created and what part of the chain is doing what to your sound, ON TOP OF being able to basically put any of those pieces of gear into the hands of a virtual tech who can work in real time and do things a real tech and amp couldn't even hope to achieve.

You can easily and just about instantly answer questions like "How does input filtering impact the sound." "What exactly do transformers do to the sound and what is the difference between larger and smaller ones." "How does negative feedback impact the sound and what does more or less of it sound like." "What if I could add another gain stage or clipping diodes into that amp's preamp, is it better to have more gain stages and set the gain lower or fewer gain stages and set the gain higher." "What if I could add/remove/put a new resistor in the bright cap." "What if I could put amp X's tonestack into amp Y." "Do 'hotter' biased amps actually sound more aggressive and better like every wive's tale says or will a colder bias actually get me where I want to go." How about I find all this stuff out in in 5 seconds each while I turn the knob and listen. "Do I actually like amp X over amp Y or is it just that when I played amp X, I was using a different cab and was in a different room, and turns out those were the things I liked more." and a million other things.

I feel like Fractal alone has given me a University degree's worth of info I wouldn't otherwise have, that I went on to apply to analog gear when I use that as well. In that sense, Fractal gear is immeasurably valuable to me.

The other thing about modeling is that it encourages you to think like an engineer. Modelers encourage you to think of your tone as everything between your fingers and the PA speakers or studio monitors, where most analog-rig guys (though not most forums guys, admittedly) only think of "their tone" as existing between their fingers and the speaker out jack of their amps, with most players thinking cabs are only necessary to make the amp loud, but are otherwise unimportant to tone in general. This sentiment is changing now, but I believe it's primarily changing because modeling has shown all of us how vitally important and influential cabs are to the tone shaping process.

Anyway, when the die hard analog guys try modelers, they're suddenly forced to deal with picking from a ton of cabs and mics, and then hearing a mix-ready version of their tone as opposed to an amp-in-the-room version and it throws them hard. Modelers usually make you deal with a multitude of cabs, mics, and post processing, which can be intimidating, but it's no different than what any player would already have to deal with if they wanted to make their tone sound good through any PA or mix. It's just that most analog guys never need to think that far into the chain.

Modeling does require a bit of a different approach than tube rigs, for sure. With most analog rigs, what you have is all there is, so you tend to work "outward" with them, which means seeing what you can do with them, finding everything possible, tweaking like crazy, etc. Most modeling rigs can do pretty much everything though, so if you take that approach, you'll tweak forever, which is basically the #1 complaint I read about modelers, tonal opinions aside. Instead you kind of have to work "inward" and narrow down what you want from infinite possibilities. You can ultimately arrive at the same place, but you kind of have to get there from a different direction.

Moral of the story: use both. They both have different sets of strengths and weaknesses, but both can get you exactly where you want to go if you learn how to approach them, and both can teach you things the other can't.
I appreciate your point of view, and dont disagree. I just often got frustrated having to fight for a tone. And i came up with some great ones.

But it is the same with some amps. If i have to fight to find a tone, my inspiration dies. A lot of times i hear something in my head and plug in while i FEEL it to lay it down, to hear it with gain. The longer the time till i am playing that shit, the greater chance i lose the will
 
I was meaning the FOH PA system - up at the front edge of the stage, you are hearing was going on in the room more so than what’s happening at the backline.
Oh, I have no idea how anything on stage works tbh

Thanks for the explanation!
 
Say whatever you want about modeling, but one angle I don't see discussed all that often about great modelers is how much they can teach you about guitar tone in general.

Diving into Fractal's ecosystem has taught me 10x more about guitar tone than all the forums reading and music store jamming I've ever done combined. Most people will never have anything close to a decked out studio full of the best gear money can buy, all cabled up and integrated into a completely functional switching system so you can truly compare apples to apples and learn how guitar tone is actually created and what part of the chain is doing what to your sound, ON TOP OF being able to basically put any of those pieces of gear into the hands of a virtual tech who can work in real time and do things a real tech and amp couldn't even hope to achieve.

You can easily and just about instantly answer questions like "How does input filtering impact the sound." "What exactly do transformers do to the sound and what is the difference between larger and smaller ones." "How does negative feedback impact the sound and what does more or less of it sound like." "What if I could add another gain stage or clipping diodes into that amp's preamp, is it better to have more gain stages and set the gain lower or fewer gain stages and set the gain higher." "What if I could add/remove/put a new resistor in the bright cap." "What if I could put amp X's tonestack into amp Y." "Do 'hotter' biased amps actually sound more aggressive and better like every wive's tale says or will a colder bias actually get me where I want to go." "Do I actually like amp X over amp Y or is it just that when I played amp X, I was using a different cab and was in a different room, and turns out those were the things I liked more." and a million other things. How about I find all this stuff out in in 5 seconds each while I turn the knob and listen.

I feel like Fractal alone has given me a University degree's worth of info I wouldn't otherwise have, that I can also apply to analog gear when I use that as well. In that sense, Fractal gear is immeasurably valuable to me.

The other thing about modeling is that it encourages you to think like an engineer. Modelers encourage you to think of your tone as everything between your fingers and the PA speakers or studio monitors, where most analog-rig guys (though not most forums guys, admittedly) only think of "their tone" as existing between their fingers and the speaker out jack of their amps, with most players thinking cabs are only necessary to make the amp loud, but are otherwise unimportant to tone in general. This sentiment is changing now, but I believe it's primarily changing because modeling has shown all of us how vitally important and influential cabs are to the tone shaping process.

Anyway, when the die hard analog guys try modelers, they're suddenly forced to deal with picking from a ton of cabs and mics, and then hearing a mix-ready version of their tone as opposed to an amp-in-the-room version and it throws them hard. Modelers usually make you deal with a multitude of cabs, mics, and post processing, which can be intimidating, but it's no different than what any player would already have to deal with if they wanted to make their tone sound good through any PA or mix. It's just that most analog guys never need to think that far into the chain.

Modeling does require a bit of a different approach than tube rigs, for sure. With most analog rigs, what you have is all there is, so you tend to work "outward" with them, which means seeing what you can do with them, finding everything possible, tweaking like crazy, etc. Most modeling rigs can do pretty much everything though, so if you take that approach, you'll tweak forever, which is basically the #1 complaint I read about modelers, tonal opinions aside. Instead you kind of have to work "inward" and narrow down what you want from infinite possibilities. You can ultimately arrive at the same place, but you kind of have to get there from a different direction.

Moral of the story: use both. They both have different sets of strengths and weaknesses, but both can get you exactly where you want to go if you learn how to approach them, and both can teach you things the other can't.

I resonate a lot with your post. I was an amp builder. I built a whole bunch of different circuits with different topologies. From low gain to high gain, from true class A, AB, and even a few B's. Cathode biased, fixed bias, no feedback, adjustable feedback, to fixed feedback. Yes, I know my way around tube amps and solid state amps.

These are some of the reasons I chose a Fractal FM9T. It gives me that flexibility if I want. But honestly, the stock models are great, just adjust your tone controls and go. Where you may find diving deep is helpful is trying out the IR's with different microphones. This has more effect on the tone and feel than anything else in my opinion...

I also watched a ton of tutorials to get me going. I'm no master of the Fractal by any means. But I can get awesome tones real fast. In one of my bands, I use AC30, Twin, Cornford, Plexi, and Splawn Quickrod tones that sound and feel authentic. I have fooled some diehards many times....

Is it exactly like my tube amps? No! But close enough to make the gigs very satisfying...
 
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