“Tone is in the fingers” my ass. (RANT)

[Kapo_Polenton]

I would argue that what you are describing is style or technique, not tone. 10 people can play the same gear and "sound" different because their style emphasizes some idiosyncrasies in their playing over others. but it doesn't change their core tone.

I don't care who you are, no one will ever make one of those battery powered pignose amps sound like a cranked 100 watt NMV Marshall with their fingers.

Or to put it another way; and this may sound silly but it makes a point.... Have you ever heard someone say "Man, he can really scoop those mids out with his pinky finger?"

I'd counter back with this as an example:

I want to sound like EVH
EVH sounded like EVH through a Marshall, Peavey, and then a Fender 5153 ( and a sound board many times)
Why don't I sound like EVH through this Marshall, Peavey, or 5153???

Because style and technique ARE tone. How can they not be? So the guys that can cop his feel and technique, are the guys who sound more like him.

I think what it comes down to, is what you think affects tone and how you define tone.

 

[heavision]

Actually, what I said was, "An amp simply amplifies input. It doesn't 'produce' tone necessarily, rather, it imparts whatever qualities and characteristics particular to its electronic make up in the amplification of the input signal. This isn't a technical explanation but a very simple, practical perspective for the sake of explanation."

I saw that.

Your phrase “it imparts whatever qualities and characteristics particular to its electronic make up…” is what I’d call tone.

I suppose where we differ is where you say “it doesn’t produce tone..” To me an amp/rig does indeed produce tone—via its inherent “qualities and characteristics.”

What a player does with those qualities and characteristics I’d call chops, style, technique, phrasing etc. I just personally don’t refer to that stuff as tone.

I agree with a lot of what you’ve said. I think we just use the word tone differently. Which is fine. All good.

 

[japetus]

I'd counter back with this as an example:

I want to sound like EVH
EVH sounded like EVH through a Marshall, Peavey, and then a Fender 5153 ( and a sound board many times)
Why don't I sound like EVH through this Marshall, Peavey, or 5153???

Because style and technique ARE tone. How can they not be? So the guys that can cop his feel and technique, are the guys who sound more like him.

I think what it comes down to, is what you think affects tone and how you define tone.

Maybe cocaine could help

 

[heavision]

I get what you are saying, but I am a tone is in the fingers guy. Simply because if we admit that vibrato, picking attack/slant. right hand dynamics, and phrasing/timing all influence TONE, then how can tone NOT be in the fingers? We know this because 10 guys can play the same amp and sound diff. So as much as you hate it..it's a fact.

I do in fact disagree with the sentiment “tone is in the fingers.” Or really I just don’t like it, I think it’s misleading, in my opinion.

However, I do not disagree that “vibrato, pick attack/slant, right hand dynamics and phrasing all influence TONE” as you said above. Totally agree. 100%.

To me the reason those things can have such a huge influence on tone is precisely because they are two different things. One influences the other.

Fingers influence tone. 100% agree. They do not harbor tone, they influence tone.

The tone has to be there first so the fingers can influence it.

At least that’s how I see it.

 

[eddyrox]

See how Jimmy puts the Les Paul right over his balls? That’s where the tone comes from, it’s the tone zone

View attachment 199312

Dimarzio's have nothing on this area of JP's body.... LOL

 

[MadAsAHatter]

I'd counter back with this as an example:

I want to sound like EVH
EVH sounded like EVH through a Marshall, Peavey, and then a Fender 5153 ( and a sound board many times)
Why don't I sound like EVH through this Marshall, Peavey, or 5153???

Because style and technique ARE tone. How can they not be? So the guys that can cop his feel and technique, are the guys who sound more like him.

I think what it comes down to, is what you think affects tone and how you define tone.

Here's one problem with your analogy. The amps you listed that he played through all sound very close and if dialed in right can sound nearly identical. So of course EVH is going to sound similar because the gear is so similar. And don't forget the rest of his rig. He didn't play guitar plugged directly into the amp. Also don't forget; especially if you're talking album tones there's a bunch of post processing. Even live sound has post processing to an extent.

As for why you' don't sound like EVH, it's because you didn't have all the exact gear he had including the sound guy manning the PA.

As an example to counter your EVH argument, let's look at Metallica. They have had several different tones throughout the years. The most notable is when they went from using JCM800's from the early years switching to Mesa Mark on MoP. Its a massive difference both album and live. They changed gear, unless I'm unaware of James & Kirk having finger transplant surgery during that time.

 

[Metalhex]

It's pointless to chase someone else's tone. Whatever you hear on an album is only a snapshot of hundred different particulars unique to that moment in time.

 

[heavision]

I get what you are saying, but I am a tone is in the fingers guy. Simply because if we admit that vibrato, picking attack/slant. right hand dynamics, and phrasing/timing all influence TONE, than how can tone NOT be in the fingers? We know this because 10 guys can play the same amp and sound diff. So as much as you hate it..it's a fact.

“So as much as you hate it…it’s a fact.” A fact? Sheeeyit.

If you’re saying that your observation “vibrato, pick attack/slant, right hand dynamics and phrasing/timing all influence TONE” is a fact, then we are in total agreement.

But, how one makes the cognitive leap to “tone is in the fingers” from that fact is beyond me.

“How can tone NOT be in the fingers?”

Because to me tone is something inherent to the gear/rig, not the fingers. Your entire set-up from pick to speakers and everything in between is your tonal palette. In it resides a myriad of possibilities for tone. The player, the fingers, influence tone—as you and others have pointed out—but they do not possess or create tone, it is not in them.

Here’s the thing: no one is disputing the massive impact of the playing, touch, vibrato, technique, phrasing and so on. We just simply use a different word to describe it—chops, style, what have you. So when guys go on and on about pick attack, dynamics, phrasing etc, you’re preaching to the choir.

It’s the specific sentiment “tone is in the fingers” that’s the issue, not that which it’s used to describe.

We all agree about the massive influence the hands have on tone. One’s playing, technique, style is hugely important.

But why the fuck don't they call it chops? Style? Technique? You got about a hundred options. But to call it tone, in a gear forum? Pfft.

 

[romanianreaper]

"Tone" is definitely in the fingers but this statement is misleading because really it is talking about a player's tone but with their "sound". Yngwie is a good example. Yngwie will sound like Yngwie thru his gear or similar gear if doing his style, etc. But if Yngwie plays a slow part on an acoustic, people might not guess it is him. If he starts playing fast on the acoustic, everyone will instantly guess.

I think with a player's "tone" that also means their fel, what key and style they play in, choice of riff, etc. Slash does that thing where he pulls the strings, etc and has a cleaner tone. It definitely

 

[ccn]

It's pointless to chase someone else's tone. Whatever you hear on an album is only a snapshot of hundred different particulars unique to that moment in time.

Listen to Van Halen's debut album and then listen to Van Halen live in 78 throughout their worldwide tour , the live recordings sound just like the studio versions of the songs . Eddie repeatedly said that if you can't pull off what you sound like in the studio live what's the point .

 

[heavision]

I'd counter back with this as an example:

I want to sound like EVH
EVH sounded like EVH through a Marshall, Peavey, and then a Fender 5153 ( and a sound board many times)
Why don't I sound like EVH through this Marshall, Peavey, or 5153???

Because style and technique ARE tone. How can they not be? So the guys that can cop his feel and technique, are the guys who sound more like him.

I think what it comes down to, is what you think affects tone and how you define tone.

Regarding EVH I think the best way to illustrate that tone resides in the rig is the fact that Ed’s tone changed dramatically in the 80s. He retired his magic 68 plexi and went to the SLO. Boom, tone change.

I’m gonna go out on a limb here and suggest that he did not take off his 68 plexi fingers, put them in a drawer, and put on his Soldano fingers.

 

[braintheory]

I do in fact disagree with the sentiment “tone is in the fingers.” Or really I just don’t like it, I think it’s misleading, in my opinion.

However, I do not disagree that “vibrato, pick attack/slant, right hand dynamics and phrasing all influence TONE” as you said above. Totally agree. 100%.

To me the reason those things can have such a huge influence on tone is precisely because they are two different things. One influences the other.

Fingers influence tone. 100% agree. They do not harbor tone, they influence tone.

The tone has to be there first so the fingers can influence it.

At least that’s how I see it.

I agree. That might actually be the best way to put that fingers influence the tone that is already there and many on here maybe get distracted too much by the “influence” and fail to judge just the tone itself. It’s again imo about being able to distinguish between quality of playing and quality of tone

I have some friends who aren’t great players, but sometimes have dialed in tones that to me were reminiscent of some famous guys like Yngwie, Randy or others. Did I tell them they sound just like those guys or that they played like them? Hell no. That would be an entirely separate conversation. I told them the tone they have there is a lot like those guys and they know what I mean (should be obvious imo)

This “tone is in the fingers” expression I think ultimately does more bad than good in its effect. I think it probably stems a lot from laziness in guys willing to describe things or maybe trying to withhold information from less experienced players. Either way not great. From now on when I don’t wanna answer a gear related question I’ll just say sorry tone is in the fingers

 

[Bardagh]

Scrolled fast past this thread title and had to go back and make sure someone wasn’t ranting about getting their ass fingered by someone named Tony.

 

[Dan Gleesak]

Tone is in the fingers
We use gear to sound like other people’s fingers

 

[midnightlaundry]

Tone come from my amps custom power cord..

 

[braintheory]

Tone is in the fingers
We use gear to sound like other people’s fingers

Ah I really hope not because I don't know anyone who has everything about their tone 100% on point (we're all human). If anything, I look at it more where I want gear that does the least to get in the way of what my fingers want to do (me communicating my musicality). All the top tier level gear I've tried has been excellent there. The just "nice" gear (aka most recent made gear) didn't satisfy there

 

[311splawndude]

I still say it is the sum of all the parts. Brain > fingers > strings >wood > pickups > cables > maybe pedals > amp power section > amp preamp section > output tranny > more cables > speakers >cabs > sound waves > ears > brain > repeat

Does a pinch harmonic have a tone? Or is that strictly a skill or an effect?

 

[braintheory]

I still say it is the sum of all the parts. Brain > fingers > strings >wood > pickups > cables > maybe pedals > amp power section > amp preamp section > output tranny > more cables > speakers >cabs > sound waves > ears > brain > repeat

Does a pinch harmonic have a tone? Or is that strictly a skill or an effect?

I would say whether you play a pinch harmonic, chug, power chord or melodic lead line you're hearing the same tone of what you've set up, but you're hearing how that tone you have is translating for each of those different applications. It might be a great tone for rhythm stuff, but not for lead for example, but the tone is what it is. Even when we play chords or notes we are hearing those harmonics, just much more faintly

I can't quite do this yet with electric gear, but I've gotten to the point in classical guitars (since it's my main thing) where even when I'm tuning it up, playing just open notes, I pretty much know how it's inherent tone is going to translate for different applications and how the notes will connect and other details. You just get a feel for it after a while

 

[Dan Gleesak]

Ah I really hope not because I don't know anyone who has everything about their tone 100% on point (we're all human). If anything, I look at it more where I want gear that does the least to get in the way of what my fingers want to do (me communicating my musicality). All the top tier level gear I've tried has been excellent there. The just "nice" gear (aka most recent made gear) didn't satisfy there

I guess what it boils down to is what people when they talk about "tone". When they say that want to sound like EVH, does that mean they want to nail the VH1 tone? Or just sound like EVH?
A dude that can play like Eddie is going to sound more "EVH" through any cranked up rock and roll amp than someone that doesn't have the chops playing through one of Ed's exact rigs. Even Eddie himself only sounded like VH1 once.

I'm not a tone chaser in the sense that I'm looking to recreate recorded tones. A single snapshot in time of tone. If I was, I might be more in to the "gear side" of the minutia. I'm more of a finding a tone that makes me want to play kind of guy and the more gear I play, the more I find that it is all pretty similar.

 

[RevDrucifer]

I couldn’t care less about the debate of this stuff because it’s just a waste of time, in nearly 30 years of being on the internet, I’ve never seen any useful information gained from the debate, but they continue to roll on. For me, it’s a combination of everything. The way I dial in distortion requires some extra gas from my hands to get the end result, anyone with a heavy right hand would most likely feel at home playing through it, but I’ve got a couple buddies who let the amp do the heavy lifting and when they play through my shit it‘s like they dialed the gain back.

I’m not a chaser of any individual tone for my own music, it’s whatever works best for the song I’m working on. For the hobby side of music I get a kick out of going for tones of my favorites and get close enough to appease myself.







The Vai/Gilmour clips tend to highlight the ‘combination of things’ as I wouldn’t have been able to get to those tones as easily if it weren’t for the guitars/pickups, the Vai clip is a JEM with Evolutions and the Gilmour clip is a replica of his Red Strat. The 7th Seal clip I suppose is an outlier as I know those Evolutions sound nothing like the EBMM EVH pickups and I just picked a random IR that was closest to the ballpark, even worse, I was using a model of a 5150 .