1969 Pulsonic Greenback vs '90s UK "6402" Greenback - speaker comparison

[Racerxrated]

I think the UK Heritage reissue greenbacks and the Heritage 12H-30 are some great sounding speakers! I like greenback tones on clips but when I play them in front of the cabinet I have always preferred my 12H-30's. I used to play my amp through my drummers EVH 4x12 with the Heritage greenbacks in it always sounded good but I felt my H cabs sounded better for me and what I like.

Whatever Celestion has been doing the last few years I hope they keep doing it....... I love mine.

I have a 4x12 cabinet loaded with 12H-30 75Hz Reissues and it sounds like my original coned 1979 1982B cabinet with blackback 12H-30 75HZ speakers when I have them side by side.

Alot of great clips of people with those EVH cabs.

Since Covid, Celestion has all their speakers revert back to Made in England. That might be the 'sauce' in the newer production speakers.

 

[braintheory]

In the end, after all my speaker/cab purchases/trades I'm just not an H magnet dude, exceptions for the G12 H80 and the pair of 1966 H25s that I have. Those H25s don't sound anything like the H30s I've had, including 2 Pulsonics and many H30 av speakers. They are more like an M25 than the H30. I did have a 1972 slant cab, all original and you can definitely hear the midrange difference with those vs any that followed...and, I've had a 74 with RIC cones, 2 BB cabs from 76 and assorted reissue GB cabs.
The EVH cab with the 20w reissues sounds really good and aren't very different than the vintage cabs I've had. I think if you have a shot at getting a vintage GB cab for a good price, go for it..there is something special going on...but, for 3k or whatever they are (Pulsonic cab) I'm not sure it's worth the difference in tone vs the price.

The only H magnet Celestion I really like are the Redbacks. Somehow they still have a rich midrange despite the H magnet. Many forget V30’s are also H magnets and I find if AB’ed (in isolation) to any 25 or 20w GB you hear comparatively the center midrange sounds like there’s a hole in it vs those speakers, but will sound more midrangey than H30’s

I feel H magnet Celestions in general are kind of a no man’s land of speakers. What Celestions excel at over other brands is mids and H magnets get away from that. If I really wanted huge lows, sharp aggressive highs or scooped mids no H magnet Celestion will touch JBL’s, Crescendo’s, or Roger Charles/Cletron's for that. I think with speakers as ingredients to craft one’s sound it’s much better to use those and M magnet celestions than these awkward middle ground H’s

 

[SQUAREHEAD]

Here’s a weird one guys,
I have a brand new NOS pair of Made in England, Celestion G12H speakers with 6402 cones.

I never knew they existed before I found these a few years ago.

 

[SBlue]

In the end, after all my speaker/cab purchases/trades I'm just not an H magnet dude, exceptions for the G12 H80 and the pair of 1966 H25s that I have. Those H25s don't sound anything like the H30s I've had, including 2 Pulsonics and many H30 av speakers. They are more like an M25 than the H30. I did have a 1972 slant cab, all original and you can definitely hear the midrange difference with those vs any that followed...and, I've had a 74 with RIC cones, 2 BB cabs from 76 and assorted reissue GB cabs.
The EVH cab with the 20w reissues sounds really good and aren't very different than the vintage cabs I've had. I think if you have a shot at getting a vintage GB cab for a good price, go for it..there is something special going on...but, for 3k or whatever they are (Pulsonic cab) I'm not sure it's worth the difference in tone vs the price.

Yep... those H25 and M20 are some of my all time fave speakers. Something about those early paper voice coil Greenbacks that's just magical! But again, I still prefer, by a mile, a good Blackback, V30 or Redback for metal. Even the Ric cone Creambacks are so much tighter and better than the Pulsonic cone Greenbacks for metal. However, when it comes down to blues and classic rock, nothing beats an early Greenback.

 

[psychodave]

Here’s a weird one guys,
I have a brand new NOS pair of Made in England, Celestion G12H speakers with 6402 cones.

I never knew they existed before I found these a few years ago.

That's interesting. Wonder how they sound?

 

[braintheory]

Yep... those H25 and M20 are some of my all time fave speakers. Something about those early paper voice coil Greenbacks that's just magical! But again, I still prefer, by a mile, a good Blackback, V30 or Redback for metal. Even the Ric cone Creambacks are so much tighter and better than the Pulsonic cone Greenbacks for metal. However, when it comes down to blues and classic rock, nothing beats an early Greenback.

With pulsonic M25's I agree 110%, but I think the perception many have of the H25's & M20's being less tight might come from the color of the cabs themselves they came in typically and would agree about how the sound translates there, but I've compared (both isolated (not in a cab) and in some of my different cabs) all the various H25's & M20's I've had to my other speakers (including V30's, Redback's and Blackbacks among many others) and actually found them to be some of the tightest and fastest responding speakers I have out of 70+ speakers I currently have with a wicked chainsaw-like upper mid grind that makes them tied with Altec 417B's as my all time favorite speakers. Because of their very lean/thin low end I find for metal I need either a beefier, more robust sounding cab or speakers paired below (such as Crescendo's or JBL's like EVH did) and then it becomes among my favorites for metal too, but maybe not for some specific metal styles. In some ways they can almost sound like a 10" speaker with how fast, crisp and lean they sound, but I love them to death. I find the heritage reissues also do a great job capturing their overall flavor, but not as raw, 3D and the big difference is also much quieter

I love my redbacks, but never found them tight or fast and with low mid heavy amps like my Recto’s, Uber or Blueface they can get flubby IME. I find them to complement well either my very tight or bright amps like my Hermansson or Hell Razor (great combos there). Blackbacks I never cared for (I have a quad still). Something about their midrange I find ugly/less musical sounding and lack upper mid aggression for my taste like I get in M20's or V30's. Even though I sold them I actually even got metal sounds I liked with the '60's Alnico Blues and Silvers I used to have. When AB'ed (both in a cab and isolated) I thought they smoked the RIC's in every way and is the reason I sold them. I again think some guys get ideas about how these speakers sound from the color of the cabs they come in typically or amps like Vox's they get paired with, but having played my IIC+ (coliseum version as well) through a quad of those in my cabs as well as M20's they can be really cool (imo at least) for metal too (and certainly among the most 3D harmonically rich sounds I've had, which is the most valuable part for me), but I know it wasn't the smartest move pushing those speakers with amps like that in retrospect lol. Especially playing shreddy or sweep type leads with the IIC+ through those '60's Blues or Altec 417's is a sound like no other IME. Maybe the most glorious liquid high gain lead tone I've heard, especially with the Klon boosting it to top it off

 

[Exo-metal]

Anyone reading this who owns my favorite speakers can PM me...G12M-25 16ohm creambacks are aways welcome in my home ?

That said, sorry to the OP. Love this thread brother.

 

[SBlue]

With pulsonic M25's I agree 110%, but I think the perception many have of the H25's & M20's being less tight might come from the color of the cabs themselves they came in typically and would agree about how the sound translates there, but I've compared (both isolated (not in a cab) and in some of my different cabs) all the various H25's & M20's I've had to my other speakers (including V30's, Redback's and Blackbacks among many others) and actually found them to be some of the tightest and fastest responding speakers I have out of 70+ speakers I currently have with a wicked chainsaw-like upper mid grind that makes them tied with Altec 417B's as my all time favorite speakers. Because of their very lean/thin low end I find for metal I need either a beefier, more robust sounding cab or speakers paired below (such as Crescendo's or JBL's like EVH did) and then it becomes among my favorites for metal too, but maybe not for some specific metal styles. In some ways they can almost sound like a 10" speaker with how fast, crisp and lean they sound, but I love them to death. I find the heritage reissues also do a great job capturing their overall flavor, but not as raw, 3D and the big difference is also much quieter

I love my redbacks, but never found them tight or fast and with low mid heavy amps like my Recto’s, Uber or Blueface they can get flubby IME. I find them to complement well either my very tight or bright amps like my Hermansson or Hell Razor (great combos there). Blackbacks I never cared for (I have a quad still). Something about their midrange I find ugly/less musical sounding and lack upper mid aggression for my taste like I get in M20's or V30's. Even though I sold them I actually even got metal sounds I liked with the '60's Alnico Blues and Silvers I used to have. When AB'ed (both in a cab and isolated) I thought they smoked the RIC's in every way and is the reason I sold them. I again think some guys get ideas about how these speakers sound from the color of the cabs they come in typically or amps like Vox's they get paired with, but having played my IIC+ (coliseum version as well) through a quad of those in my cabs as well as M20's they can be really cool (imo at least) for metal too (and certainly among the most 3D harmonically rich sounds I've had, which is the most valuable part for me), but I know it wasn't the smartest move pushing those speakers with amps like that in retrospect lol. Especially playing shreddy or sweep type leads with the IIC+ through those '60's Blues or Altec 417's is a sound like no other IME. Maybe the most glorious liquid high gain lead tone I've heard, especially with the Klon boosting it to top it off

That's were I say my taste for speakers are completely different than yours. I don't like most fane speakers, original Crescendo being one of the worst sounding ones in my book, unless if you're playing David Gilmour clean parts. I also hate the JBL series, unless if you're going for that SRV tone. For metal, in special extreme metal with very high gain amps, I can't stand them at all. Even the EVM-12L, which is an incredible overall speaker, loses for most Celestion, when used in a high gain situation.
I also don't like mixing speakers at all.
I agree that the Heritage series, both the EVH and the 20M are incredible sounding speakers, and get very close to the original ones. So are the Scumback versions of them. And both the Heritage and Scumback speakers had more low end and the low end on them were tighter than with the original 20M and 25H I own. That's the advantage of having something with a new cone vs a 50+ years old paper cone.
I've also never liked the Celestion Alnico speakers for metal. Not the Blue, the Ruby, the Gold or the Cream. Let alone the old Silver, Grey or Blue ones! I think these are some of the very best sounding speakers ever, but not for metal. But hey, Reza loves his Alnico Cream to death, so I understand you might like the old Alnico speakers for Metal too. And that's ok.
Now, for my taste, which is completely different than yours, if I could only have a single 4x12 cabinet, I would take a 75 Marshall 4x12 with Ric cones(25m, 30h, 55hz or 75hz) over anything with JBL, Fane, EVM, Altec or any Alnico speakers.

 

[Speeddemon]

are you guys familiar with this one and more specifically what it might pair up nicely with?

View attachment 374258

Looks like a '74/'75 RIC cone cream/grey-back to me.

Had a pair, sold them, in favour of my pre-Rola's. Like in the video, the pre-Rola's are less stiff, more 'woody' and the mids ever so slightly juicy/bouncy.

 

[mentoneman]

I'm running a full 4x12 cabinet of 55hz 12H-30's and I love em. If you don't have another it should blend well with either 75hz greenbacks or 75Hz 12H-30's.

so would my speaker be id’ed as a rola greyback? and it is fairly desirable in the celestion gh30 pecking order?

all i know is it sure sounded sweeter (zero harshness-very touch responsive) than most of the off the shelf celestions i’ve ever heard/owned.

i know absolutely nothing about vintage celestions.?

 

[braintheory]

That's were I say my taste for speakers are completely different than yours. I don't like most fane speakers, original Crescendo being one of the worst sounding ones in my book, unless if you're playing David Gilmour clean parts. I also hate the JBL series, unless if you're going for that SRV tone. For metal, in special extreme metal with very high gain amps, I can't stand them at all. Even the EVM-12L, which is an incredible overall speaker, loses for most Celestion, when used in a high gain situation.
I also don't like mixing speakers at all.
I agree that the Heritage series, both the EVH and the 20M are incredible sounding speakers, and get very close to the original ones. So are the Scumback versions of them. And both the Heritage and Scumback speakers had more low end and the low end on them were tighter than with the original 20M and 25H I own. That's the advantage of having something with a new cone vs a 50+ years old paper cone.
I've also never liked the Celestion Alnico speakers for metal. Not the Blue, the Ruby, the Gold or the Cream. Let alone the old Silver, Grey or Blue ones! I think these are some of the very best sounding speakers ever, but not for metal. But hey, Reza loves his Alnico Cream to death, so I understand you might like the old Alnico speakers for Metal too. And that's ok.
Now, for my taste, which is completely different than yours, if I could only have a single 4x12 cabinet, I would take a 75 Marshall 4x12 with Ric cones(25m, 30h, 55hz or 75hz) over anything with JBL, Fane, EVM, Altec or any Alnico speakers.

I think the reason many don’t like Crescendo’s or JBL’s is their more intense highs and poor mids, but they sound massive and can chug in a way no Celestion has in the cards and the sharper highs can be cool in the right context. That’s where I find the right cabinet and sometimes speaker mix gets them just right. The right mix of ingredients, while most gear we have I think is naturally more dialed in toward celestions as our more familiar reference point. In general I hate mixing speakers too (and don’t like Fane’s), but through lots of trial and error some speaker mixes IME can be great. All the clips I sent you that one time were Redbacks on top/JBL E120’s bottom and it’s still one of the very best metal sounds I’ve had through the Kerry Wright so far. In person it sounded monstrous and huge in a way that would be impossible for me to get with only celestions in the cab (any Celestion model). In some ways it’s sort of I think like EVH’s M20/JBL D120F mix on steroids lol

The main thing that draws me in to any piece of gear is the overall level of tonal complexity. IME the Crescendo’s and JBL’s have that especially for how powerful they are, but I think most don’t notice it because the very intense high end overshadows it. Sort of like if you had a lemon with a really complex flavor, but the sourness overshadowed it and I do also like eating raw lemons btw lol. The only celestions I’ve played with a lot of that complexity/detail IME have been the pulsonic GB’s and ‘60’s Alnico Blues and Silvers. All other celestions I’ve had I’d rank from comparisons behind my JBL’s, Altec’s, Roger Charles/Cletron’s and Crescendo’s in that department. The most 3D sounding speakers to me have been the ‘60’s Alnico Blues and ‘60’s Altec 417B’s. Guys seem to mostly just know the 417C and H versions, but IME the B version is so much richer in tone

I don’t like much the newer Alnico celestions nor Reza’s sound at all lol and I do have an Alnico cream still that I never use. It’s not that I don’t enjoy those other celestions you mentioned for metal. They clearly work very naturally for it functionally, but the level of tone/complexity is nowhere near 10/10 for me and that leaves me not fully satisfied, but in general metal and high gain tones often are not best in that area, but I don’t believe it has to ge be that way

 

[harddriver]

so would my speaker be id’ed as a rola greyback? and it is fairly desirable in the celestion gh30 pecking order?

all i know is it sure sounded sweeter (zero harshness-very touch responsive) than most of the off the shelf celestions i’ve ever heard/owned.

i know absolutely nothing about vintage celestions.?

I think yours might be a cream back in the 1973/1974 year range....do you have the date code that it on the frame of the speaker? Looks like some of those cream back plastic covers from that era appear grey.

https://reverb.com/ca/item/83672901...s-t1281-55hz-pulsonic-cones-30-watt-rare-pair

An original pair of 1973 Rola Celestion G12H-30 T1281 30 watt 16 ohm "greenback" speakers, perfect working condition. Both have original Pulsonic 55hz cones, codes "4". Both have factory corrective stickers on the impedance labling on the magnet covers. This is original an not a sign of modification. Relatively common with Celestions These are some of the last of the Pulsonic cones that were ever made. Greybacks are effectively the same as the later greenback era. Still retaining the sought after pulsonic cones but having a Grey magnet cover.

 

[harddriver]

Like in the video, the pre-Rola's are less stiff, more 'woody' and the mids ever so slightly juicy/bouncy.

Your description of the Pulsonics both 25 W 75hz and H 30 watt is how I hear them and would describe.....I don't know how to convey the 'WOODY' description but that seems to be the mojo term for the pre-rola pulsonics characteristics. I hear some of that woodiness in my Heritage Reissue 12H-30 55HZ but it's not as pronounced as the actual Pulsonics.

I would however like to try a couple of Jim's new Scumback Blackback 12H-30 55HZ and see how close he got since severing ties with Weber. Does Jim's new Pre-Rola Pulsonic recreations have that woodiness, chewy qualities to them? I didn't hear it in the Weber M65's Pre-rolas but that was probably due to the 65Watt coils needing more power to get them in the zone....I should have gotten the regular 25 watters at the time, I don't know why I went with the 65 Watt speakers...........My original cab of 78 Blackback 75hz 25 watters were the same way though you needed to drive them with some considerable volume to get them out of the wooly zone. .

 

[Speeddemon]

FWIW, my pre-Rola's are 55Hz 30W versions, so next to sounding reasonably woody, they're THICK as cream sounding.

And I sold a '72 Rola one, that also sounding insanely good (courtesy of the Pulsonic cone). See attachment. That one sounded ever so more forward and kerrangy than the pre-Rola ones. Great for that Kossoff stuff.

 

[SBlue]

I think the reason many don’t like Crescendo’s or JBL’s is their more intense highs and poor mids, but they sound massive and can chug in a way no Celestion has in the cards and the sharper highs can be cool in the right context. That’s where I find the right cabinet and sometimes speaker mix gets them just right. The right mix of ingredients, while most gear we have I think is naturally more dialed in toward celestions as our more familiar reference point. In general I hate mixing speakers too (and don’t like Fane’s), but through lots of trial and error some speaker mixes IME can be great. All the clips I sent you that one time were Redbacks on top/JBL E120’s bottom and it’s still one of the very best metal sounds I’ve had through the Kerry Wright so far. In person it sounded monstrous and huge in a way that would be impossible for me to get with only celestions in the cab (any Celestion model). In some ways it’s sort of I think like EVH’s M20/JBL D120F mix on steroids lol

The main thing that draws me in to any piece of gear is the overall level of tonal complexity. IME the Crescendo’s and JBL’s have that especially for how powerful they are, but I think most don’t notice it because the very intense high end overshadows it. Sort of like if you had a lemon with a really complex flavor, but the sourness overshadowed it and I do also like eating raw lemons btw lol. The only celestions I’ve played with a lot of that complexity/detail IME have been the pulsonic GB’s and ‘60’s Alnico Blues and Silvers. All other celestions I’ve had I’d rank from comparisons behind my JBL’s, Altec’s, Roger Charles/Cletron’s and Crescendo’s in that department. The most 3D sounding speakers to me have been the ‘60’s Alnico Blues and ‘60’s Altec 417B’s. Guys seem to mostly just know the 417C and H versions, but IME the B version is so much richer in tone

I don’t like much the newer Alnico celestions nor Reza’s sound at all lol and I do have an Alnico cream still that I never use. It’s not that I don’t enjoy those other celestions you mentioned for metal. They clearly work very naturally for it functionally, but the level of tone/complexity is nowhere near 10/10 for me and that leaves me not fully satisfied, but in general metal and high gain tones often are not best in that area, but I don’t believe it has to ge be that way

I 100% believe you. What I'm saying is that my taste for speaker and tone is mostly different than yours.

 

[mentoneman]

I think yours might be a cream back in the 1973/1974 year range....do you have the date code that it on the frame of the speaker? Looks like some of those cream back plastic covers from that era appear grey.

https://reverb.com/ca/item/83672901...s-t1281-55hz-pulsonic-cones-30-watt-rare-pair

An original pair of 1973 Rola Celestion G12H-30 T1281 30 watt 16 ohm "greenback" speakers, perfect working condition. Both have original Pulsonic 55hz cones, codes "4". Both have factory corrective stickers on the impedance labling on the magnet covers. This is original an not a sign of modification. Relatively common with Celestions These are some of the last of the Pulsonic cones that were ever made. Greybacks are effectively the same as the later greenback era. Still retaining the sought after pulsonic cones but having a Grey magnet cover.
View attachment 374891

what thuh…!
i bought that speaker a million years ago and it’s currently in a box at my son’s house in Cali.
had no idea it was as pricey as that! thanks for the info good sir!
and Merry Christmas!??

 

[Speeddemon]

Your description of the Pulsonics both 25 W 75hz and H 30 watt is how I hear them and would describe.....I don't know how to convey the 'WOODY' description but that seems to be the mojo term for the pre-rola pulsonics characteristics. I hear some of that woodiness in my Heritage Reissue 12H-30 55HZ but it's not as pronounced as the actual Pulsonics.

For something as frequency-limited (70Hz-6kHz or those whereabouts) and compressed sounding as guitar speakers, the 'woody' part of it would describe a sort of organic, dynamic openness...

I mean, compared to ANY guitar speaker, a pair of Meyer HD1 studio monitors definitely sound more 'open', but I wouldn't describe those as woody.
'Reedy' would also be conveying the same idea. In the OP's video, the Pulsonic seems to breathe more, and slightly more mellow with more bounce (or less stiffness).
Disclaimer: I'm listening on good headphones.
And I got a bunch of experience with these older Celestions, from '71 (my 2 pre-Rolas), '72 (Pulsonic Rola) and '74/'75 (RIC cone greybacks). Especially in thickening and smoothing the classic Marshall (bright, kerrangy) circuits, those Pulsonics work magic.