advice related to guitar sound using in-ear monitors

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jswevers

jswevers

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Dear all,

Since recently my band switched to in-ear monitors (wireless using Shure PSM900 combined with Westone UM3x three way in-ear phones.
Quite some investment and I am very pleased with a lot of things about it: hearing protection, better mix and hence more comfortable
playing. One this I do not like (and the other guitar player in the band experiences the same thing) is the guitar sound. Drums, bass, singing
all sound very good, but the sound of the guitar is horrible: clean is to compressed, overdrive/distortion are like it is coming out of a cheap
multiprocessor thing ... no balls, not much dynamics either. We are using a Sennheiser e906 to mike the amps. I have tried already many
different positions of the microphone/played around with the EQ of the mixing console ... not much improvement.

So, maybe you have some advice for me ... switching back to normal monitoring is NO option mainly because of the hearing protection.

I have read somewhere on the internet that using 2 microphones or using a microphone in combination with a direct box helps a lot.
I have read about the Hughes and Kettner Red Box Classic DI-box and the Whirlwind Mic Emulator, which can be switched between
poweramp out and speaker in .... : what is your opinion on those DI-boxes, are they safe to use with Diezel amps (I have a VH4)...
Are there other and better solutution ... experiences ...

Any advice is welcome.

Thanks

Jan
 
Hi Jan,

I understand EXACTLY what you mean. You are way ahead of me in terms of purchasing gear with which to play on-stage. Anyway, here's what I found.

I use a Diezel Einstein, Bogner 2x12, PRS guitars and as in-ear monitors, I use the Variphone (Westone) 2-way in-ear monitors. Exactly as you said: everything sounds good, except for guitars.

Extensive testing has brought me nothing. Multiple mics, different EQ settings... it's just not the same. I asked a couple of professional PA guys how to get it right. They told me: it's simple. You need to understand 2 things about in-ear monitors. 1) you will NEVER get the same sound as you get from your amp, as your guitar sound goes out of a mighty amp, into a mighty cab, into a tiny mic and out of tiny in-ear monitors. 2) your monitor sound will only be as good as the guy who is mixing it. Even then, you need to accept that it will never sound as good as you want it to.

For me, that was a great disappointment. It seems right, though. We had a couple of mixers that actually made it sound ok, once I was willing to accept it will never be the same tone I get out of my cab. Other times, it was just useless. I need a good sound to get me in the right flow for performing.

Only thing that could help a bit, is to use your own personal monitor mixer on stage. Use your own mics. Mix it the way you like it and maybe run a left-right from the FOH. Get your guitar on left and the main mix on right, something like that. Still: it will not sound as good as you want it to on your ears.

I still have my Variphones, but I recently purchased a set of ear plugs with 15db attenuation filters. It gives me almost the same sound (normal), just not so loud. The only thing that works well for me. Anyway, hope you figure something out! Once you do, let me know! :)
 
As Reussen stated above. The drummer in my band runs 2 condenser mics on the stage. Usually behind everything, either close to the floor or ceiling depending on the venue sometimes in front of the guitars on each side of the stage, more towards the wall and not directly on the guitar cabs. Then he mixes that level for the guitar sounds for his in-ear monitors, and uses the board mix for eveything use. Other noise comes through but this gives the guitars a warmer more natural tone, almost what they sound like in the room. Could be something you wanna try. He also doesn't like the mix he get's from using a close mic of a guitar cab, very sterile sounding.

I will ask him again if he is using the close mic'd board signal for any guitar monitor. But I don't think he does. He also sings back-up vocals throughout the entire night as well. So he might be running those for guitar/bass signals and vocals are run from our main board to his mixing board. He has sound engineering experience too so I will double check my facts. And let you know.

I use a 100 watt Einstein w/ a closed back cab on one side and the other guitarist is running a Shiva 2x12 open back on the other (4: 6L6's I think :confused: ) and he enjoys the mix he gets. In case y'all are wondering.

I've heard other guys liking the DI and mic option. But I was wondering if a guy could use the comp. out on the back of his Diezel and then use a mic for the DI box & mic style of monitor mixing?
 
Thanks already for your feedback. Looking forward to learn more. I can across the Tube Amp Doctor F.A.N.T.A. and other speaker emulators.
The sounds I hear of them on the web. are good, much much better than what I hear with my in-ear monitors. That makes me wonder: if they
can record such a good sounds, it must be possible also to have the same quality in real time through an in-ear monitor systems ... or
is it the wireless system that causes all this compression/non-dynamic sound ...
 
the vh4 is used on many records... and the guitar sounds are good. so it must be possible to get this good sound into the in ear monitoring. i think it depends on microphones, microphone positioning and amp setting. the best would be to have a studio session with a good sound tech and learn from him.

i use in ear with vh4 on stage and have learned that i need to get the earpieces out for a good solo. after 3 years i still have not get used to the very direct sound. i now hear every little playing flaw which is just not heard when playing without in-ear monitoring in a band context.

also a good sound needs that the speakers are working (in my opinion). so you still need the higher volume to make it sound good. no one in the band understands that... but ask a drummer to play softer because he's now using in ears.... hahahaa... and then run.

but if you want to be in control of your own sound you have to get a little mixing console of your own (2 channels), get the rest of the band on one channel and one split of the guitar mic on the other (the other split goes to the main mixing console (be aware of possible ground loop hums then)).

the wireless system is another thing. be sure to not drive the system's input into saturation... which would result in saturation compression.
 
I had the exact same problem with my IEM using my VHT and ENGL rigs. I found that no matter what the mic placement was using the e609, sm57, Beta 56 and 57, sm58 and the ADA Microcab I could not get some of the "natural" sound in my IEM. Vocals sure. Click track sure. THEN I tried the Heil PR30. Not cheap. BUT listen to what the Heil PR 30 does and why it is a much better sounding mic. Look for yourself and do the research the Heil PR 30 is indeed the way to go. As always do your homework and see of anyone around has one. I am now getting a much better guitar sound in my IEMs;) Good luck!!
 
Dear gkoepke,


Do you use this Heil PR30 close to the amp or more from a distance. The reason I ask is the following: yesterday evening I tried the following
configuration: a Sennheiser e614 (which is a condensor microphone used as overhead mic for drums, so not ideal for guitar but that was
the only thing I had available) place approximately 1 meter from the speakers (not directly pointing towards them), and that sounded already much better already. It have the impression that a certain distance between speaker and mic is required to have a more natural dynamic less
compressed sound. Maybe also because I used a condensor mic. The Heil PR30 is also a condensor mic, but more suited than the e614. Heil PR30
is not easy to get here, so I am thinking of getting a Shure SM27 or a AKG Perception 220 : all large diaphragm condensor mics. How to cope
with avoiding noise from other instruments getting too much into these mics (especially if the mics are at a larger distance from the speakers) is still a question for me, so therefore I planning to ask more advice to a prof. sound engineer first ... and let you know
what he tells me.

Regards,

Jan
 
Hey, here's my thought, for what it's worth. You seem to be having no budget issues. So, have you heard of the Torpedo VB-101 by a company called two notes? It's a digital 8 Ohm load box with a speaker and microphone simulation. I think it's about 1600 EUR right now. You can use different cabinets, microphones and simulate microphone placement. The result is a studio grade signal via digital or analog outputs. I use it mainly for recording but I can picture it in your setting as well. Just google it, it may be for you!

Greetings from Germany,

Till.
 
another option is to split your input to a Pod or axefx to your in ears. Use cab/mic/room sims. Since the tone sucks from the miced amp you wont be loosing anything not having it in the mix. Or you can add the miced amp in on a 2 channel and blend the 2 tones.

I believe you can configured an unaltered DI signal from the Axe-FX so a separate DI is not needed. AXE-FX guys can you confirm this?
 
durbodill":3l9ysuxw said:
Hey, here's my thought, for what it's worth. You seem to be having no budget issues. So, have you heard of the Torpedo VB-101 by a company called two notes? It's a digital 8 Ohm load box with a speaker and microphone simulation. I think it's about 1600 EUR right now. You can use different cabinets, microphones and simulate microphone placement. The result is a studio grade signal via digital or analog outputs. I use it mainly for recording but I can picture it in your setting as well. Just google it, it may be for you!

Greetings from Germany,

Till.
Click to expand...
I've suggested also a bigger condenser with 1m distance.

When Jan wants to go this route: install a line out (simple mod, 1 pot, 2 resistors) into a Laptop w/soundcard and use IR files - same result, just much cheaper.
 
i had been playing with in ear monitoring since 8 years, and you are right, the guitar tone is critical..., i have better results with my ultimate ears 7 pro, but, last week our foh engineer came with a little box from palmer, model pdi 09, and...whoauuu, nice sound with flat eq on board...., its not a charge speaker simulator, its passive, it sits between head and speaker, and then an output to the console...its awesome.
there are a lot of metal bands using this little thing..., make no mistake with the rack palmers simulators...we tried and dont sound as nice like pdi09. its cheap....and sounds great! :thumbsup:
144678.jpg
 
I used my inears with the junction. Nice results, but some months after that I tried mic´s again. I like the sound more with mic´s.

And the Palmer affects the ampsound in a negative way.
 
The Palmer (I've also used this and the PGA04) units have typical Palmer-mids IMO. Very honky.
 
Bato":3cs1j5hg said:
I used my inears with the junction. Nice results, but some months after that I tried mic´s again. I like the sound more with mic´s.

And the Palmer affects the ampsound in a negative way.
Click to expand...

interesting, in wich way affects? we only used in the rehearsal.., so we are in time to get back to mics... :thumbsup:
 
First i thought it´s the perfect solution for inears. It´s really clean and without any sounds that dont belong to you.
But i could not get any useable crunch sound with the d.i. box. And i tried all the possible settings it delivers.

So i stopped for a while playing with inears and put the sm57 back and unplugged the junction. The junction sucked an amount of the "good" frequencies. The Herbert started to breathe again. I´m pretty sure I´ll never return to the d.i. solution.
 
duesentrieb":30ye59qa said:
I've suggested also a bigger condenser with 1m distance. When Jan wants to go this route: install a line out (simple mod, 1 pot, 2 resistors) into a Laptop w/soundcard and use IR files - same result, just much cheaper.
Click to expand...

Richtig, richtig. I just happen to have a Torpedo (got it as a birthday gift) and I was just thinking it would work in the situation that Jan described. That's if you don't think spending 1600 bucks just to have a decent in-ear guitar sound is a little over the top. I probably wouldn't do it, personally. But then, I'm not the type to carry around a laptop with a bunch of impulse responses, either :D

Anyways, what's Jan's plan now?

Grüße,

Till.
 
Dear all,

my plan is to check a few condersor large diaphram mics and discuss the issue with a professional sound engineer. I will
let you know the answer asap.

Kind regards,

Jan
 
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