Are real amps on stage becoming a thing of the past?

  • Thread starter Thread starter JimAnsell
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legend71 said:
In addition, most of the guys around here with Kempers or Helix whatever cannot be heard in a mix either (whether it is their fault or the soundman's).
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What I found over the years is that stage volume probably play a part in the overall sound in small pubs a lot more than the sound guys like to admit. Most cab-less bands I saw in small pubs sound hollow and have this void in the middle of the sound stage.

Not much of an issue in bigger venues since the PA are bigger and people are further away from the stage.
 
godgrinder said:
What I found over the years is that stage volume probably play a part in the overall sound in small pubs a lot more than the sound guys like to admit. Most cab-less bands I saw in small pubs sound hollow and have this void in the middle of the sound stage.
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Tube amps and speakers with hollow mids. Cab-less stages with an entire hollow frequency spectrum. What's this world coming to?
 
If I was a touring pro and that was my sole occupation, I'd want to be making as much $$$ as possible and offset that with whatever would allow me to do that. You have to reduce costs in any area you can. Cartage is one of those big areas. The more you carry, the more you pay. Also, you need quick setup times, consistency, etc.

Playing in your local bars every other week? Not so much. I moved back to using an amp head and lighter 212. Not a whole lot of weight difference to be honest with you as I had the Axe III, Orange pedalbaby 100, power unit and connectors in a 6U rack. This weighed only 5.5lbs less than my 20th XTC head which weighs in at 46.5 lbs. The Friedman ASC-10s weigh in at 46lbs alone! I'd sometimes bring 2x for stereo. My Bogner 212CB is 50lbs and is one of the easiest 212s to take around with the side handles and wheels.

In reality, I really only want to use 3 tones and the FX from my pedalboard which is not a large board either. I run my setup through a Captor X and into FOH and monitor through my cab on stage. With my connector cables all in a snake and Neutrik connectors on the base of the pedalboard, I am just as fast setting up as I was with the Axe III.
 
godgrinder said:
What I found over the years is that stage volume probably play a part in the overall sound in small pubs a lot more than the sound guys like to admit. Most cab-less bands I saw in small pubs sound hollow and have this void in the middle of the sound stage.

Not much of an issue in bigger venues since the PA are bigger and people are further away from the stage.
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I think you are right - It does lack some girth or whatever you wanna call it. I find that my amp makes me smile. My Flyrig does not as much :)
 
We'll see trends move the needle but tube amps don't seem likely to go away. Guitar players are a nostalgic bunch. Modelers and Tube amps are all just tools in the ol' belt and unless you have roadies usually utility wins the day...I'll take my licks but sometimes I actually prefer to just play my FM3
 
thegame said:
Tube amps and speakers with hollow mids. Cab-less stages with an entire hollow frequency spectrum. What's this world coming to?
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I wonder what the impact this will have on the selection & cost of tube amps in the future.
Will they always be there?
Look what happened to pagers, I’m still trying to explain to my 12 year old son the process of you getting paged and you had to find a pay phone or landline to call the number back.
I used to text my buddies the “BOOBLESS” joke, that’s actually funny as hell man, good on ME for that dumb shit..LTFOL for a good 30 seconds man.
I can’t speak much about the invention I’m working on that is the ultimate bedroom sorta’ amp.
Example:
You can power a 100 watt bloody Marshall with the chip in my IPhone, -I can’t type anymore.
Where in the HELL was I going with this??
Argh!!
 
If I ever go see Crowbar or Eyehategod and they're running thru modellers I will fucking laugh. There is no way some of the old school bands out there are ever going to change.
 
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I’m thinking about going modeler, I play in a cover band in Delaware and we play only a couple times a year, hardly worth lugging gear around, changing/biasing tubes and all the expenses for a bunch of drunks who will never realize the difference. Just gotta find one that gets me close and I’ll be on that bandwagon I think.
 
I can't imagine playing without a 4x12 onstage that i can stand in front of and feel air pushing at the back of my legs and being able to do controlled feedback. Even on the gigs that i use my kemper. i still run a cab and the soundguy gets the direct out from the kemper. I don't think i'll ever go without a 4x12 on the stage. It's part of the feel and vibe.
 
With my cover band, i switched to a modeler about 3 years ago and then we all went iem last year...I’ll never go back to amps for gigs. Sounds great, convenient and consistent.

I’m using an Fm3 and ps170 mounted on a pedal train; split the signal to FOH and a 2x12 for a little stage volume for feedback, couldn’t be any easier. Its important to dial in the modeler at gig volume with the band though.

At home I play a plexi thru a power station...it’s glorious and my tonal home base, but just not worth the hassle for gigs.
 
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Kapo_Polenton said:
I'd say amps on stage aren't what are disappearing but rather the mic'd cabs. More bands running into Torpedos and using impulses so it is more consistent night after night. Modelers seem to end up overseas for festivals and such where you want it up and down quick. But load box and impulses have gotten real amps back in the game.
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this is exactly how i would run if i was gigging again
 
I just can’t deal with the thin-ness and fakeness of modelers. Tubes have a harmonic depth to them that I need for inspiration. I just can’t play thin sounding hollow interpretations of them.

I’ve got my amps I’ve always dreamed of and I don’t think I’ll ever add anything else amp wise. I’m working on my rack now.

I understand the ease of hauling things. I get the amps are heavy but as someone else said good tone is heavy, it just comes down to how much do you want to sacrifice?

I also fear the push of others going IEM so that when I show up not intending to be mic’d they lose their shit or expect me to turn down to mouse fart levels only to crank my amp through the PA. I just can’t do it.
 
To the o.p.- sometimes,but all of the big tours I see,or that ive been involved with, there's still a real tube amp cookin somewhere, whether its backstage or whatever.
I've said this before here,keep in mind,as some go to modelers for " convience", there are some absolutely fantastic new amp companies showing up these days.If you like real tube amps its never been a better time to own one.
I use at a minimum of 1- 4x12 cab,but usually 2 or 3 for w/d/w all mic'd for shows from 300 seaters up to the 5-8k seat small arenas.I am almost always asked to turn up by f.o.h with that rig.
Even on my worship team,I crank a badcat or blackface Princeton reverb just slightly offstage. F.o.h in both environments are always complimenting me on my tone.I have zero use for modelers at this point.Every time I hear a band live in my area with modelers,99.9% of them sound thin,shrill,dynamics are lost and sound like a bunch of bumblebees buzzing..somewhere else it may be different, idk.
1 more thing,as far as amps on stage, I absolutely love the loading in and out of the 4x12 cabs..people in the crowd coming up at break gawking and asking bout the rig, it's no big deal at all for us guys.We help each other and setup is usually 15-18 minutes for a full-blown multi- tube amp,4x12 cab stage set.We are very organized and have setup and load out down to a tee.
No ego's in the band,super nice guys to work with will also go a loooooong way to get what u want from ur soundman.It works...all is good in stage amp land
 
I want you guys to guess which of the following are modelers and which is the real amp:



Then I want you to guess when the real mic'd cab starts playing and when the IR starts playing:

 
pipboy90 said:
I want you guys to guess which of the following are modelers and which is the real amp:


Then I want you to guess when the real mic'd cab starts playing and when the IR starts playing:
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You remind me of my small daughter. "I want this, I want this..." :)

It's not about guessing, which one is modeller and which one a tube amp. Probably all guys here are informed, that modellers can sound great and are on the level where it's hard to distinguish, what kind of gear was used. I have a modeller, I have a profiler and they sound great. But I like to play my tube gear in the first place, just because for the feeling.
 
mcstinger said:
It's not about guessing, which one is modeller and which one a tube amp. Probably all guys here are informed, that modellers can sound great and are on the level where it's hard to distinguish, what kind of gear was used. I have a modeller, I have a profiler and they sound great. But I like to play my tube gear in the first place, just because for the feeling.
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I don't think everyone is informed: a few posts above yours there are people saying modelers sound "thin, fake, shrill, have no dynamics, etc". Maybe that was true 15 years ago, but that's not true with today's modelers.

glpg80 said:
In real life there’s no guessing needed. Recorded is not the same as IRL.
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That's an apples to oranges comparison, isn't it? It depends on what you're using as a power amp with a modeler, but if you have a good tube power amp you can totally compare the two. They will both sound equally good.

In fact, I preferred playing the SLO-100 Fractal model through a Fryette PS-100 to the real amp. Why? Because in the model you can play with the master volume at 5+, which is something you can't do with the real amp unless you attenuate it. I've gotten equally good results with the Fryette LXII I have now.

The real argument should be a solid state power amps vs tube power amps. Tube power amps DO sound and feel better than solid state amps currently (when driving a real guitar cab), but I'm hoping for a day when solid state can match or better tube power sections.
 
thegame said:
Not a good substitute for a proper well mic'd amp. Those pedals sounds really cheap, boxy and one dimensional.
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I don't think i'd ever use Dreidel of Filth as an example of a sick metal tone, in the first place.

I'm sure Dani makes 1990s 14 year old girls very moist.

Im sure its very convenient, to have such a small rig or whatever though.
 
pipboy90 said:
I don't think everyone is informed: a few posts above yours there are people saying modelers sound "thin, fake, shrill, have no dynamics, etc". Maybe that was true 15 years ago, but that's not true with today's modelers.


That's an apples to oranges comparison, isn't it? It depends on what you're using as a power amp with a modeler, but if you have a good tube power amp you can totally compare the two. They will both sound equally good.

In fact, I preferred playing the SLO-100 Fractal model through a Fryette PS-100 to the real amp. Why? Because in the model you can play with the master volume at 5+, which is something you can't do with the real amp unless you attenuate it. I've gotten equally good results with the Fryette LXII I have now.

The real argument should be a solid state power amps vs tube power amps. Tube power amps DO sound and feel better than solid state amps currently (when driving a real guitar cab), but I'm hoping for a day when solid state can match or better tube power sections.
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If I’m carrying a massive tube poweramp I’m carrying a guitar head with the preamp built in. I also hate the lack of plug and play with anything modeling - you have to tweak and tweak to get good sounding when my tube amps are good to go instantly. I don’t need a 22” screen or a laptop to go with it.

I get modeling is here to stay but in person I’m a tube guy. I’ll never use one.
 
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