Big ass tube power amps vs FX return of tube heads

[Meeotch]

This question goes out to all who have tried the big boy power amps. I'm talking VHT Classic and 2150, Mesa Strategy, etc. 4U power amps with the giant transformers.

I'm thinking about trying to track one of these down to pair with an assortment of Synergy preamp modules. But I could also buy a really nice tube head with a high end power section and use its FX return. Power tube differences aside, will there be differences in terms of finesse, depth of sound stage, touch sensitivity, detail, etc between the two?

I got nothing against amps like Mesa 2:90, VHT 2/90/2, etc. But I'd probably pick the FX return of a Herbert or Triple Rec over those. The VHT Classic and 2150 on the other hand, seem to be in a different league. Thoughts?

 

[paulyc]

I think the bigger problem is the separation of the pre and power sections, even though theoretically it shouldn’t matter it does, hence the whole W/D/W thing... complete tube head in the center and the poweramp runs the outer cabinets only, best of both worlds.

 

[Racerxrated]

I think the bigger problem is the separation of the pre and power sections, even though theoretically it shouldn’t matter it does, hence the whole W/D/W thing... complete tube head in the center and the poweramp runs the outer cabinets only, best of both worlds.

It's kinda amp dependent; from my experience. I have an HH M900(same as V800, only 2 in/outs vs 4 in the V800) and had a Mesa strategy 400. The power amps were more 'present' in tone when used in a slave or line out rig..when I've used regular amp head with an FX loop, each amp acts differently. The only amp that compared to the preamp/separate power amp rig was when I slaved a 2C++ HRG to a 2B Coliseum that had the loop mod. That sounded killer and more like one single amp. But others that I've tried didn't sound near as good.
I've not had a Diezel or Bogner, I'd bet they would work well in this scenario.

 

[Meeotch]

I understand the W/D/W signal path and how it is the ideal setup for time based effects. But my question is a little more basic...do these massive transformers exceed the tonal capabilities of a traditional tube head? To the point where I would seek them out as a better alternative to sending a preamp signal into the FX return of a boutique head?

Racer - I see your point that it may just entirely come down to the amp in question. I'm no amp guru, but I understand there is some magic in the efficiency of those toroid transformers compared to the traditional rectangular transformer found in amp heads. The easy answer is to just buy a VHT Classic and try it myself, but it sure would be nice to hear some more opinions first

 

[psychodave]

Yes. I’ve tried using effects loop inputs to run it as a power amp and it is cool, but a dedicated power amp like the Strategy 400 excels. Keep in mind, you are changing the purpose of an amp to use it as a power amp. The dedicated power amp is designed for its own purpose.

 

[nigelpkay]

I’m super happy with using my Marshall JCM800 2203X reissue as a power amp by just plugging preamps in the FX return. I’ve been using ISP Theta preamps this way. I’ve used the FX loop on the DSL the same way and it works great too.
Just have to be careful because you are bypassing the master on the amp so it’s on full bore, so get the preamp connected first and your preamp level starting low before you flip that standby switch on the amp.

 

[paulyc]

I remember reading John Suhr saying a dedicated head sounded better than the separate pre and power amp situation and I agree, I also think most big name guys ( EVH, Steve Stevens, Lukather etc) would agree based on the size of their W/D/W rigs. However, anything can work. I saw Stryper last time they came through and Michael used his ISP floor unit through the effects return of a head, and Oz used a Line 6 the same way. They sounded great. I’d bet they’d sound even better through a Strategy 400 or a VHT though...

 

[bhuard75]

I've been running a Fish as my main pre-amp through regular heads for the past 8 years. You cant go wrong either way if those synergy modules sound good.

I prefer my Fish with a power amp vs the return of an amp's FX loop. I just picked up a 4U Fryette 2100 (Classic's successor) and I'm loving this thing. I was previously running a fryette 292 for the past year and was totally happy with it.

If I had to give advice in any capacity it would be this.... Run those synergy modules though different power sections and listen to how much they influence the sound of them. Are they inheriting the power amps sound? If its significant think about what type of power section your ears are going to enjoy the most. Running through a Fryette is going to be the most transparent interpretation of the preamp to run through.

 

[Purpleibby]

I remember reading John Suhr saying a dedicated head sounded better than the separate pre and power amp situation and I agree, I also think most big name guys ( EVH, Steve Stevens, Lukather etc) would agree based on the size of their W/D/W rigs. However, anything can work. I saw Stryper last time they came through and Michael used his ISP floor unit through the effects return of a head, and Oz used a Line 6 the same way. They sounded great. I’d bet they’d sound even better through a Strategy 400 or a VHT though...

Yes I remember this too from Suhr...when I had my 3+SE rig he also said it sounded best run through a Marshall power section and if not that he recommended the 2:90 which I had at the time. For a while I ran my 3+SE through the PT100's power amp and it sounded killer ran that way. I think it's amp dependent really. Some power amps are better than others, and some Head power sections and effects returns are better than others.

 

[Racerxrated]

I understand the W/D/W signal path and how it is the ideal setup for time based effects. But my question is a little more basic...do these massive transformers exceed the tonal capabilities of a traditional tube head? To the point where I would seek them out as a better alternative to sending a preamp signal into the FX return of a boutique head?

Racer - I see your point that it may just entirely come down to the amp in question. I'm no amp guru, but I understand there is some magic in the efficiency of those toroid transformers compared to the traditional rectangular transformer found in amp heads. The easy answer is to just buy a VHT Classic and try it myself, but it sure would be nice to hear some more opinions first

Best optimal setup is a dedicated power amp...my results showed that to be correct until I slaved with that coliseum...that was even better than the Strategy or the HH..so I think your best chance to match a dedicated power amp/preamp is with a head that has a monster power section and a great loop..like a Diezel or Wizard or Bogner or even a newer Marshall, those loops are really nice.

 

[SpiderWars]

FWIW, when you use the fx return on Mesa Mark series amps that have GEQ you get the added bonus of the GEQ. I used my Mark IV that way and it worked great. You can sometimes find Mesa tube bass amps with GEQ if you wanted big power, but I've never tried that.

 

[godgrinder]

Pretty sure Fryette mentioned that the 2150 and Classic have the same transformers as the respective KT88/EL34 Pittbull heads?

Anyway I found that for modules, running it into a power section that is sort of in the same family work the best.

 

[Meeotch]

I've been running a Fish as my main pre-amp through regular heads for the past 8 years. You cant go wrong either way if those synergy modules sound good.

I prefer my Fish with a power amp vs the return of an amp's FX loop. I just picked up a 4U Fryette 2100 (Classic's successor) and I'm loving this thing. I was previously running a fryette 292 for the past year and was totally happy with it.

If I had to give advice in any capacity it would be this.... Run those synergy modules though different power sections and listen to how much they influence the sound of them. Are they inheriting the power amps sound? If its significant think about what type of power section your ears are going to enjoy the most. Running through a Fryette is going to be the most transparent interpretation of the preamp to run through.

Nice score! Got a pic? I didn't realize the Classic and 2100 were different amps. I think that is good advice about trying different power sections. I've been moving a lot of gear lately, and am down to a Mark IVb and JP-2C. Both of these are unbelievable amps and I plan on keeping them (famous last words). But that leaves me a bit limited in trying different power sections.

Noted about the Mark series 5 band. My Synergy gear is in the mail so I will update once I get to try it through the Mesas.

 

[bhuard75]

^^ The VHT Classic is the same as the Fryette 2100 just different cosmetics. After Fryette sold VHT, he just changed the name of 4U units. Fryette 2100 & Fryette 2150, same power amps different faceplates.

 

[Racerxrated]

This question goes out to all who have tried the big boy power amps. I'm talking VHT Classic and 2150, Mesa Strategy, etc. 4U power amps with the giant transformers.

I'm thinking about trying to track one of these down to pair with an assortment of Synergy preamp modules. But I could also buy a really nice tube head with a high end power section and use its FX return. Power tube differences aside, will there be differences in terms of finesse, depth of sound stage, touch sensitivity, detail, etc between the two?

I got nothing against amps like Mesa 2:90, VHT 2/90/2, etc. But I'd probably pick the FX return of a Herbert or Triple Rec over those. The VHT Classic and 2150 on the other hand, seem to be in a different league. Thoughts?

.

 

[kurtsstuff2003]

An old Marshall 2204 was the best "power amp" I've ever used via the low input gain in which I ran my ghetto rack into. I've had most high dollar booteeky amps on the market in the past but, when it came to show time..The rig I mention is the one that got used. I just picked up an old but very clean Peavey 120/120 classic power amp and can't decide whether to keep it or not...damn thing weighs more than I do it seems..lol!

 

[Goat]

I've always preferred using the effects return over a dedicated power amplifier. Ampeg, particularly.

 

[kurtsstuff2003]

 

[Zachman]

Depends on the amps

I used to run a stereo rig w/ 2 Boogies running the power sections L/R, but have been using a stereo power amp (Boogie Simul-395) for my W/D/W rig for YEARS...

 

[aside]

My experience is that 'it depends'. So to answer your question there's no rule of thumb, it's all subjective and some heads will out perform some power amps, and vice versa.

I've had excellent results running my Synergy system through my Metro plexi clone FX return if that helps.