CLIP: 2ch Recto Vs VH4

[bubucci]

VH4 sounds heavier and brutal sounding and fits the vibe of the song. Recto sounds just like recto, personally I really not a fan of those charakteristic scratchy/abrasive highs.

 

[Beyond Black]

They both sound great, but but I dig the extra grit and aggression the Mesa brings.

 

[shadow]

i always assumed the Diezels had more marshally highs based on vid clips. I voted based on the clip only, no bias, I've never heard a Diezel in person. I almost always prefer more crunch and grind than less. BTW, I loved that ambient clip, it totally reminds me of looking at the top of the water from underwater.

 

[fusedbrain]

Nice one, do you have any docs or info on how to do this, sounds interesting!
Especially if it's quick and easy to do.

Here's a pic showing the output jacks in my VH4. The white wire is the negative feedback connection. In a stock amp, this is connected with the orange wire on the middle (8ohm) pair of jacks.
I simply moved the wire to the left and connected it with the orange wire on the 4 ohm jacks.

Another note about NFB. The relationship between the 4 ohm, 8 ohm and 16 ohm taps is (1.414) or (.707).
For example, if you have a 100k resistor on the 4 ohm tap, this is the same amount of NFB as a 140k resistor on the 8 ohm tap ( 100 x 1.414 = 140k )
Conversely, if you have 47k on the 16 ohm tap, this is the same as 33k on the 8 ohm tap. ( 47 x .707 = 33.22k )
If you move TWO taps up or down, then it's double or half.
Here's where it gets interesting.......to me, 100k off the 4 ohm sounds way better than 140k off the 8ohm for example. Both setups should sound approximately the same, but they don't. Taking the NFB off the 4 ohm tap always sounds better when I test it in my builds
EDIT: I just realized I fukked up the math and my examples were backwards.
If you go up a tap, the resistor has to get BIGGER to compensate for the increased amount of NFB from the larger tap and vice versa.
I corrected the examples in this post, but any quotes will be wrong.

 

[FourT6and2]

Nice one, do you have any docs or info on how to do this, sounds interesting!
Especially if it's quick and easy to do.

Here's a pic showing the output jacks in my VH4. The white wire is the negative feedback connection. In a stock amp, this is connected with the orange wire on the middle (8ohm) pair of jacks.
I simply moved the wire to the left and connected it with the orange wire on the 4 ohm jacks.

Another note about NFB. The relationship between the 4 ohm, 8 ohm and 16 ohm taps is (1.414) or (.707).
For example, if you have a 100k resistor on the 4 ohm tap, this is the same amount of NFB as a 68k resistor on the 8 ohm tap ( 100 x .707 = 70.7k or 68k )
Conversely, if you have 47k on the 16 ohm tap, this is the same as 68k on the 8 ohm tap. ( 47 x 1.414 = 66.45k or 68k )
If you move TWO taps up or down, then it's double or half.
Here's where it gets interesting.......to me, 100k off the 4 ohm sounds way better than 68k off the 8ohm for example. Both setups should sound approximately the same, but they don't. Taking the NFB off the 4 ohm tap always sounds better when I test it in my builds

Interesting, thanks. I've never really experimented with anything other than 100k/4ohm and various values on the 8ohm. I just wired up a pot on the 8ohm and dialed in what I liked and then measured the pot. Then put in a fixed value to match. Settled on 47k on 8ohm for most of my Marshall-style builds. But I never really tried other values on the 4ohm.

 

[saxxamafone]

I think I would play my old VH4 with the Treble and presence maxed/near max. Same for the Herbert

Glad to know it's not just me!

I have a recto bias, but I think the VH4 has a bit more life and fits the track better here, even on the darker take.

Thanks for checking it out Much appreciated.

Recto STILL wins for me on that one. Huh.

What reversion is that Recto?

Recto definitely sounds 'bigger' overall and really dominates the mix. I actually have the VH4 in the mix at 0db and the Recto is at -2db, otherwise it overpowers too much.

This recto is a 1998 Rev G

Mesa clip sounds great!

I do like the second VH4 clip too. But the Mesa edges it out a bit. Where do you have the mids set on the VH4? If they aren't maxed out, try that... would love to hear another clip what that one change. That's how I had to run my VH4 when I had it years ago.

Thanks mate! I know you've had a lot of experience with the VH4 yourself.
Mids here are at 1:30 (oclock), I'll give it a run tonight with mids cranked and post it up here. Listening back today the new VH4 clip is coming through a little too scooped for my tastes now.

How are liking your Ceriatones?

I really like both of those amps. They are both an amp I would love to own.
Nicely done!

Thank you sir!

VH4 sounds heavier and brutal sounding and fits the vibe of the song. Recto sounds just like recto, personally I really not a fan of those charakteristic scratchy/abrasive highs.

Thanks for checking this out, yes it's difficult to control the highs on the recto. Too little and it's muddy, too much and it's too scratchy.
I guess that's part of the recto sound people either like or don't.

They both sound great, but but I dig the extra grit and aggression the Mesa brings.

i always assumed the Diezels had more marshally highs based on vid clips. I voted based on the clip only, no bias, I've never heard a Diezel in person. I almost always prefer more crunch and grind than less. BTW, I loved that ambient clip, it totally reminds me of looking at the top of the water from underwater.

Nope definitely not, Diezels are a bit different but they lean more towards recto territory than marshall territory in my opinion. They're very smooth and dark. Don't naturally have 'bite' like a marshall does.

Which clip did you prefer mate?

Thanks for the feedback on the ambient clip, very interesting way to describe it! Nice

 

[saxxamafone]

Here's a pic showing the output jacks in my VH4. The white wire is the negative feedback connection. In a stock amp, this is connected with the orange wire on the middle (8ohm) pair of jacks.
I simply moved the wire to the left and connected it with the orange wire on the 4 ohm jacks.

Another note about NFB. The relationship between the 4 ohm, 8 ohm and 16 ohm taps is (1.414) or (.707).
For example, if you have a 100k resistor on the 4 ohm tap, this is the same amount of NFB as a 68k resistor on the 8 ohm tap ( 100 x .707 = 70.7k or 68k )
Conversely, if you have 47k on the 16 ohm tap, this is the same as 68k on the 8 ohm tap. ( 47 x 1.414 = 66.45k or 68k )
If you move TWO taps up or down, then it's double or half.
Here's where it gets interesting.......to me, 100k off the 4 ohm sounds way better than 68k off the 8ohm for example. Both setups should sound approximately the same, but they don't. Taking the NFB off the 4 ohm tap always sounds better when I test it in my builds

Thanks so much for posting this mate!

So noob question from me, in doing this change... do you get the benefit then regardless of whether you plug into 4ohm 8ohm or 16ohm output jacks?

To use the torpedo live, I should be coming out of the 8ohm jack on the amp (as I currently do).

thanks!

 

[fusedbrain]

Here's a pic showing the output jacks in my VH4. The white wire is the negative feedback connection. In a stock amp, this is connected with the orange wire on the middle (8ohm) pair of jacks.
I simply moved the wire to the left and connected it with the orange wire on the 4 ohm jacks.

Another note about NFB. The relationship between the 4 ohm, 8 ohm and 16 ohm taps is (1.414) or (.707).
For example, if you have a 100k resistor on the 4 ohm tap, this is the same amount of NFB as a 68k resistor on the 8 ohm tap ( 100 x .707 = 70.7k or 68k )
Conversely, if you have 47k on the 16 ohm tap, this is the same as 68k on the 8 ohm tap. ( 47 x 1.414 = 66.45k or 68k )
If you move TWO taps up or down, then it's double or half.
Here's where it gets interesting.......to me, 100k off the 4 ohm sounds way better than 68k off the 8ohm for example. Both setups should sound approximately the same, but they don't. Taking the NFB off the 4 ohm tap always sounds better when I test it in my builds

Thanks so much for posting this mate!

So noob question from me, in doing this change... do you get the benefit then regardless of whether you plug into 4ohm 8ohm or 16ohm output jacks?

To use the torpedo live, I should be coming out of the 8ohm jack on the amp (as I currently do).

thanks!

Yes, it doesn't matter what speaker jack you plug your cab or load box into. (Always use the correct load as usual).
The NFB is an independent connection inside the amp. The orange leads on the speaker jacks are the 4, 8, and 16 ohm leads from the output transformer. As you can see from the pic, the NFB wire is directly connected to the desired output transformer tap to obtain the desired amount of negative feedback. The various speaker jack terminals are just convenient connection points.
Whether or not a cab is plugged into the jack that has the NFB connection is irrelevant. The NFB connection will always work.

 

[saxxamafone]

Yes, it doesn't matter what speaker jack you plug your cab or load box into. (Always use the correct load as usual).
The NFB is an independent connection inside the amp. The orange leads on the speaker jacks are the 4, 8, and 16 ohm leads from the output transformer. As you can see from the pic, the NFB wire is directly connected to the desired output transformer tap to obtain the desired amount of negative feedback. The various speaker jack terminals are just convenient connection points.
Whether or not a cab is plugged into the jack that has the NFB connection is irrelevant. The NFB connection will always work.

Very clear, thanks again mate!
I'll give this a go and see how it impacts the amp.
Some more edge would be great in this amp.
I've never really read up on NFB and how it really impacts tone before.

 

[fusedbrain]

Nice one, do you have any docs or info on how to do this, sounds interesting!
Especially if it's quick and easy to do.

Here's a pic showing the output jacks in my VH4. The white wire is the negative feedback connection. In a stock amp, this is connected with the orange wire on the middle (8ohm) pair of jacks.
I simply moved the wire to the left and connected it with the orange wire on the 4 ohm jacks.

Another note about NFB. The relationship between the 4 ohm, 8 ohm and 16 ohm taps is (1.414) or (.707).
For example, if you have a 100k resistor on the 4 ohm tap, this is the same amount of NFB as a 68k resistor on the 8 ohm tap ( 100 x .707 = 70.7k or 68k )
Conversely, if you have 47k on the 16 ohm tap, this is the same as 68k on the 8 ohm tap. ( 47 x 1.414 = 66.45k or 68k )
If you move TWO taps up or down, then it's double or half.
Here's where it gets interesting.......to me, 100k off the 4 ohm sounds way better than 68k off the 8ohm for example. Both setups should sound approximately the same, but they don't. Taking the NFB off the 4 ohm tap always sounds better when I test it in my builds

Interesting, thanks. I've never really experimented with anything other than 100k/4ohm and various values on the 8ohm. I just wired up a pot on the 8ohm and dialed in what I liked and then measured the pot. Then put in a fixed value to match. Settled on 47k on 8ohm for most of my Marshall-style builds. But I never really tried other values on the 4ohm.

Please see my edited post above, the quoted post is wrong.
But yeah if you like 47k on the 8 ohm, try 33k on the 4 ohm and see what you think. ( 47k x .707 = 33.22k)
When I try this experiment, it always seems like taking the NFB off the 4 ohm controls the high end the same way, but feels more open somehow.
Maybe I'm just crazy, but I can hear a difference

 

[saxxamafone]

Ok here's an updated VH4 clip with the mod mentioned above.

Also cranked the mids to full now which has really helped.

Starting to sound much better.

Updated Mix
https://soundcloud.com/user-634306108/vh4-mix-nfb-mod-mids-full/s-7Fo0uM56dlK

Before Mod
https://soundcloud.com/user-634306108/vh4-pre-neg-feedback-mod/s-oJ3qFy7XXB1

After Mod
https://soundcloud.com/user-634306108/vh4-neg-feedback-mod/s-WkZjsBOH6n9

 

[FourT6and2]

Ok here's an updated VH4 clip with the mod mentioned above.

Also cranked the mids to full now which has really helped.

Starting to sound much better.

Updated Mix
https://soundcloud.com/user-634306108/vh4-mix-nfb-mod-mids-full/s-7Fo0uM56dlK

Before Mod
https://soundcloud.com/user-634306108/vh4-pre-neg-feedback-mod/s-oJ3qFy7XXB1

After Mod
https://soundcloud.com/user-634306108/vh4-neg-feedback-mod/s-WkZjsBOH6n9

Nice! Yeah, cranking the mids on the VH4 is key. Sounds great

 

[saxxamafone]

Ok here's the last of the clips for this little test.

Here's the best I've been able to get out of the VH4 and the Mesa Rack Recto after playing around with settings almost everyday for a week.

As a result my ears are now buggered and need a good rest haha.

Would love to hear thoughts on these last 2 clips before I go on to writing some more stuff.


VH4
https://soundcloud.com/user-634306108/vh4-pres-4-280620/s-CFuXBzpTZS2

Rack Recto
https://soundcloud.com/user-634306108/rackto-270620-od3/s-IkPFG71y0wu


Cheers all
Thanks so much for everyone who's helped me progress this.

 

[Filter500]

Ok here's the last of the clips for this little test.

Here's the best I've been able to get out of the VH4 and the Mesa Rack Recto after playing around with settings almost everyday for a week.

As a result my ears are now buggered and need a good rest haha.

Would love to hear thoughts on these last 2 clips before I go on to writing some more stuff.


VH4
https://soundcloud.com/user-634306108/vh4-pres-4-280620/s-CFuXBzpTZS2

Rack Recto
https://soundcloud.com/user-634306108/rackto-270620-od3/s-IkPFG71y0wu


Cheers all
Thanks so much for everyone who's helped me progress this.

I think there's a sense of spaciousness in the original clips that is lost here. The tones are great, but I think the guitars are too loud and upfront in the mix for my taste.

 

[saxxamafone]

^ Thanks for that feedback. Yes I bumped the guitars up here versus the original clips so I may have gone too far

 

[LightsOfSorrow86]

Not really. All I did is move a wire from one output jack to another. Takes about 30 seconds, and is easily reversible if you don't like it.
But yes it did make a nice difference.
I'm really digging what you're doing with the ambient soundscape underneath the heavy guitars.
Nice work

You know, I did it two days ago and yes, it makes a huge difference. I feel like the amp now is gainier, brighter, less compressed, it has more volume, mids are not honky if set higher as before. It doesn't have the huge bass as before But I have a Diezel front loaded cab), treble and resence has a wider range, maybe because it's brighter overall so it is more a perception than a real thing. But it's not as tight as before. I don't know which value do you have in the egative feedback but I have a 100pF cap with a 200k resistor in parallel and a 100nF cap with a 68k resistor. The Blueface had a resistor only in the NF, on the 2000s max '03/'04 a 100pF with a 22.3k resistor, the 2005/2007 a 0.047 + a 22k and a 100k resistor. I love how it sounds mine but I miss a bit of the big lows.

 

[Soundstorm]

Really liking the VH4 after the mod. Wish I had tried this when I still had it!

 

[pipboy90]

You know, I did it two days ago and yes, it makes a huge difference. I feel like the amp now is gainier, brighter, less compressed, it has more volume, mids are not honky if set higher as before. It doesn't have the huge bass as before But I have a Diezel front loaded cab), treble and resence has a wider range, maybe because it's brighter overall so it is more a perception than a real thing. But it's not as tight as before. I don't know which value do you have in the egative feedback but I have a 100pF cap with a 200k resistor in parallel and a 100nF cap with a 68k resistor. The Blueface had a resistor only in the NF, on the 2000s max '03/'04 a 100pF with a 22.3k resistor, the 2005/2007 a 0.047 + a 22k and a 100k resistor. I love how it sounds mine but I miss a bit of the big lows.

You would likely have to compensate for the lows by tweaking the depth circuit.

 

[LightsOfSorrow86]

You would likely have to compensate for the lows by tweaking the depth circuit.

Or maybe a Rear loaded cab can do the job without tweaking the amp any further. But I really love it, I've seen a video of a '96 Blueface and my VH$ with the mod sounds 90% there.

 

[anomaly]

I prefer the VH4 here, especially the updated clips.