Do you think modelers will get there in the next 10 years?

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BatmansRigTalk said:
Here you are trying to find objective reasons why profilers can't do what valves can. You are actually saying the processing isn't good enough. So your caricature of this discussion omits you are most definitely trying to find what is physically wrong. You can't do that though. Which should tell you plenty about where the differences currently reside.
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You got me. I can't put my tube amp preference into the proper contextual words.
Problem is though, it's not just me who's choosing the real thing over the copy.
There's at least half a dozen of us in the thread that share my preference.
We can't all be wrong, or not doing it right, or simply delusional.

ANALOG TUBE AMP - DIGITAL MODEL/PROFILE OF SAME AMP

Two different devices. Two entirely different electrical designs. Two different solutions to an end result.
We perceive these devices through sound, sight, and touch.
You purport that sound-wise they are exactly the same.
AB testing has proven a % of listeners agree with you.
Cool. Chock that one up as a win.

Not everyone agrees with you. Just deal with it.
 
General question, does it actually really matter if a modeler matches exactly the amp (and pedals, effects, cabs and mics)?

I’ve always looked at the models (amps, pedals, etc...) in the AxeFx as general guidelines for a sound. Kind of like here’s a starting point of a Soldano SLO, now EQ it, add pedals, other effects and adjust to taste. It sounds great and I’ve never compared to my real SLO because I never felt the need or urge.

I have purchased many amps and pedals due to loving a particular model within the AxeFx. TBH, I may have never spent $4k on a SLO if it were not one of my favorite models in the AxeFx.
 
Do modelers hold their value after a hardware update? Asking as I have no idea.

I like to flip gear. I get bored and like to try new things. My tube amps seem to be increasing in value, but I don't know if that will last.
 
stratjacket said:
General question, does it actually really matter if a modeler matches exactly the amp (and pedals, effects, cabs and mics)?

I’ve always looked at the models (amps, pedals, etc...) in the AxeFx as general guidelines for a sound. Kind of like here’s a starting point of a Soldano SLO, now EQ it, add pedals, other effects and adjust to taste. It sounds great and I’ve never compared to my real SLO because I never felt the need or urge.

I have purchased many amps and pedals due to loving a particular model within the AxeFx. TBH, I may have never spent $4k on a SLO if it were not one of my favorite models in the AxeFx.
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This is 100% my take when I pick amps in my AxeIII. I just use it as a ballpark reference, especially in the instances where I’ve never played the real amp before. It’s of zero concern to me when I pick a Dual Rec that it “honors” or stays true to the standard Dual Rec sound, I’m more interested in getting stuff out of it that I couldn’t do with the physical amp.

So in my case, it’s not necessary at all.

As for the rest of what this thread that’s devolved to a TGP-style thread, shut up and play yer guitars, man!
 
rottingcorpse said:
Eventually tube rigs of all audio types will become very rare. Caps eventually go bad and must be replaced. Tubes will be harder to acquire. Digital will evolve more and more. Humans evolve too,becoming more accustomed to what they use as time goes on. And we as a species are evolving into using more disposable products. How many smart phones have you "upgraded" this past 10 years?

The young are always the first adopters of any new technologies. Rarely do they look back. Touring bands are using new technologies because they are easier,more consistent and take less space and weigh less. This means they are getting used to the sounds they are using night after night. Why would they not be using a Kemper or AXEFX in the studio if that's what they are playing every day?

Will these new technologies get "there" as the OP asks? Sure they will. But the "there" will be a moving target based on what/how our hearing/feeling evolves. Think about drum triggers for a moment. When the first electronic drum "kits" first came out,Vince Abbott got a set in the early 80's. They were easy to set up,took much less space and sounded pretty good in the club. Then triggers happened,and real drums could still be used for the feel but you had a plethora of sounds at your disposal. The goal posts kept moving. Same thing with these new guitar technologies.

Everything evolves and gets better until it is replaced by the next thing. Homo Habilus became Homo Erectus became Homo Sapien. But there were a bunch of smaller changes between all three of these that lead to the eventual arrival to modern man. And tho we have seen some de-evolution in society,we as a species will continue to evolve until we are destroyed or are replaced by whatever the next thing is. Such is life. Such is technology. Such is guitar.
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Good post!
 
scriptphase said:
Do modelers hold their value after a hardware update? Asking as I have no idea.

I like to flip gear. I get bored and like to try new things. My tube amps seem to be increasing in value, but I don't know if that will last.
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Seems the Fractal stuff does ok. Obviously, the first units they made are considerably lower in price these days, but the AxeFX II’s aren’t going for THAT much cheaper than they initially sold for. Maybe $300-$500 depending on how anxious the seller is to move it.

I can’t speak for other modelers as none of them every interested me as much.
 
BatmansRigTalk said:
still haven't been able to pinpoint anything about what that is exactly
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Dude, thats kind of the point. Just because you can't hold a magnifying glass over exactly what the perceived difference is, doesn't mean there isn't one....at least to them. So just let it be.

You know that Dr. Seuss story, Horton Hears a Who? You are kinda like that kangaroo that said, if I can't see it, hear it, or smell it, it doesn't exist.
 
[ Donnie B. ] said:
Not everyone agrees with you. Just deal with it.
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You are acting like I don't know there are valve purists out there trying rigorously to defend their position. Of course, I know they are there. However, that position when it makes objective claims is demonstrably false. If it stays subjective then fine. So just don't try to pass off there is something physically wrong with profilers today that can't do what their valves can. Simple as that.

I am also dealing with the claim that profilers aren't there already in the OP. That claim is demonstrably false with golden ear failing blind tests. That's why you don't find many YouTube video personalities trying that one on anymore.

After nine pages you eventually change the goal post that it's really just a subjective thing. Meaning your posts on selling off two Kempers because they didn't sound good enough to you is really a subjective issue and nothing to do with the Kemper itself.

Anyway, your appeal to 'everyone' happens to be another type false type of argument to support valve purism. It's called argumentum ad populum.
 
Metalhex said:
Dude, thats kind of the point. Just because you can't hold a magnifying glass over exactly what the perceived difference is, doesn't mean there isn't one....at least to them. So just let it be.

You know that Dr. Seuss story, Horton Hears a Who? You are kinda like that kangaroo that said, if I can't see it, hear it, or smell it, it doesn't exist.
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That's like saying the amp engineers don't have a clue what some parts do. They happen to work like magic.
 
scriptphase said:
Do modelers hold their value after a hardware update?
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Most modeling platforms offer free updates via online.
You as the owner can decide which update you want to use.
Some update to the latest version immediately. Some like to wait and let others' find the bugs first.
Either way, firmware versions have nothing to do with re-sale value based on my experience.
 
BatmansRigTalk said:
So just don't try to pass off there is something physically wrong with profilers today that can't do what their valves can.
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Well, my Kemper's never ran anywhere near as hot as my Mark III does when it's cranked.
Plus, the smell of the heated lacquer from the transformers is pleasant to me. Kemper smells stale & sterile
by comparison.
 
Having followed this thread closely,I have concluded that these conversations are quite akin to religion. Few people's beliefs can be changed...even through science...that there is even a possibility that what they "feel" may be an illusion.

As a duly appointed and card carrying Pastafarian minister I urge you all to take a moment to hoist a few drinks,plug into whatever amp/processor/deity you choose,and enjoy your own sonic bliss. It is ok to worship at the altar of more than one tone goddess.

However...any of you fucks that try to tell me that the Ibanez tube screamer amp is the second coming of God can eat a bag of dicks.
 
Real amps are great, but I love the flexibility and vast array of sounds I get with a good modeler. Gives me a lot of inspiration when creating music. And remember, it is the song that matters most, not a 1,5% sound difference between the modeler and the amp.?
 
I wrote my position about modelling quite many posts earlier.
But I have stuff to add to it:
-I do not want to spend hours *programming* my "amp" tone! No fucking way. An amp should sound and feel good right away, in a few minutes at worst... without the need to spend hours on it. I AM a programmer by profession and I do a lot of it on effects, but amps? No way. It's insane, against the very nature of it.
And by amp I mean anything transistors, tubes, whatever. I'm not going to sit in front of a dumb machine trying to get TONE out of it. EFFECTS... Yes!
-modelling is stealing! I do respect the work of art and artisanship of true amps makers. I despise those living on their work. They should all be charged for what they steal. A legal agreement should be mandatory and the true amp makers should have the right to licence or not their own stuff. And be well payed for that.
-modelling kills a culture! The amp culture is an amazing thing young kids should experience. You kids have no idea of what you are being deprived in terms of tone, knowledge, touch and feel, true listening grace. Do not brainless follow what your "gods" do as most of them have an interest in that and can tell lies. They all have amps, be sure about that. Post 9/11 world has being heavy on flight costs, thus modelling came up. No other reason as a copy is always going to sound NOT as good as the original. This is a fact in nature.
-there was a time, early '90s, when great modelling came out, thanks to Yamaha and Roland... in a very visionary way! It was about adding to the guitar sound the elements of other sound sources, like the attack and sustain of a reed or wood instrument, the physics traits of a violin... revolutionary stuff about transients, envelopes and sound formants one could impose on the instrument that would have opened a whole new page to art and music. THAT is the true magic of modelling... melting worlds, cross-pollinating formants for new sounds, moving ahead beyond synths... not just staying stale on redoing the already done... over and over and over again! What a boring concept of progress! Reinventing the wheel! Nonsense!
-learn what sound is, the very guts of it, how it works, the way VOLTAGE makes your tone, how speakers work and mics... all the magic physics a true amp delivers in a very simple way... breathing along your playing energy, respecting music dynamics in the best possible way. Invest money in less gear, BUT good stuff. Go for excellence! Nobody needs 500 amps, 2000 cabs, 1500 mics, and lies like those. One needs 3 to 5 good tones any great amp can fully deliver, helped by a couple of good overdrive pedals. Stop this insane iPod syndrome!!! You don't need to have 50.000 songs in your pocket. You NEED TO REALLY LISTEN TO 100 in the best audio format possible, learn them, grow with them, dream with them. THEN move to the next 100!
Stop the BS!!!! Start living real, kids!
 
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I think I've figured it out.

Batman on this thread claims that scientifically speaking, modelers are fully equal to real amps. And that makes sense, since as Homer once pointed out, Batman is a scientist.

But Batman doesn't have super hearing like Superman does. And we all know Superman is the biggest tube snob on the planet.

So I think this is more about yet another rivalry between Batman and Superman. I hope that helps. I thought really hard about it.
 
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Rock Bodom said:
I think I've figured it out.
Batman on this thread claims that scientifically speaking, modelers are fully equal to real amps. And that makes sense, since as Homer once pointed out, Batman is a scientist.

But Batman doesn't have super hearing like Superman does. And we all know Superman is the biggest tube snob on the planet.

So I think this is more about yet another rivalry between Batman and Superman. I hope that helps. I thought really hard about it.
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That's it! no Kemper for you.............:p
 
italoop said:
I wrote my position about modelling quite many posts earlier.
But I have stuff to add to it:
-I do not want to spend hours *programming* my "amp" tone! No fucking way. An amp should sound and feel good right away, in a few minutes at worst... without the need to spend hours on it. I AM a programmer by profession and I do a lot of it on effects, but amps? No way. It's insane, against the very nature of it.
And by amp I mean anything transistors, tubes, whatever. I'm not going to sit in front of a dumb machine trying to get TONE out of it. EFFECTS... Yes!
-modelling is stealing! I do respect the work of art and artisanship of true amps makers. I despise those living on their work. They should all be charged for what they steal. A legal agreement should be mandatory and the true amp makers should have the right to licence or not their own stuff. And be well payed for that.
-modelling kills a culture! The amp culture is an amazing thing young kids should experience. You kids have no idea of what you are being deprived in terms of tone, knowledge, touch and feel, true listening grace. Do not brainless follow what your "gods" do as most of them have an interest in that and can tell lies. They all have amps, be sure about that. Post 9/11 world has being heavy on flight costs, thus modelling came up. No other reason as a copy is always going to sound NOT as good as the original. This is a fact in nature.
-there was a time, early '90s, when great modelling came out, thanks to Yamaha and Roland... in a very visionary way! It was about adding to the guitar sound the elements of other sound sources, like the attack and sustain of a reed or wood instrument, the physics traits of a violin... revolutionary stuff about transients, envelopes and sound formants one could impose on the instrument that would have opened a whole new page to art and music. THAT is the true magic of modelling... melting worlds, cross-pollinating formants for new sounds, moving ahead beyond synths... not just staying stale on redoing the already done... over and over and over again! What a boring concept of progress! Reinventing the wheel! Nonsense!
-learn what sound is, the very guts of it, how it works, the way VOLTAGE makes your tone, how speakers work and mics... all the magic physics a true amp delivers in a very simple way... breathing along your playing energy, respecting music dynamics in the best possible way. Invest money in less gear, BUT good stuff. Go for excellence! Nobody needs 500 amps, 2000 cabs, 1500 mics, and lies like those. One needs 3 to 5 good tones any great amp can fully deliver, helped by a couple of good overdrive pedals. Stop this insane iPod syndrome!!! You don't need to have 50.000 songs in your pocket. You NEED TO REALLY LISTEN TO 100 in the best audio format possible, learn them, grow with them, dream with them. THEN move to the next 100!
Stop the BS!!!! Start living real, kids!
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Thus says the ultimate self-rightous tube snob. Where would we be without someone telling us "kids" what we need and don't need?

Thank goodness we have you here to school all of us lowly peons as to what everyone needs and don't need. Your knowledge of what everyone should do in this world is far too great to be kept to just one tiny message board. You must go forth with your God-like wisdom and spread it to the rest of the unwashed masses!

Seriously...shove your pompous and sanctimonious bullshit up your ass. Few people have the time or inclinations to study how voltage effects tone/tube/speakers et all. And no matter how much you know about effects processors and the minutiae of programming,it means absolutely nothing when you spout drivel about what you think "everyone" should do as far as how many amp,sims or songs they have. That is always the problem with preachers. They know a lot about one subject,so all other subjects are meaninglessness in their eyes.

You are the Sheldon Cooper of effects programming. We will alert the Nobel prize committee and let them know how deserving you are of an award.
 
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