Egnater Renegade 65 - Very Noisy OD Channel

[shimmilou]

First, I would follow Len Rabinowitz' advice and use one of the new tubes to sub in each preamp position to find the faulty tube (if it is a tube problem). Try the new tube in one position, check for noise. If noise is still present, replace the original tube back into that position, then try the new tube in the next position. Repeat until the noise is gone, and the one that you replace that gets rid of the noise is the faulty one. If you just replace all of the preamp tubes at once, you won't know which one is bad, and the bad one needs to be tossed so it won't be reused, and the good ones can be left in the amp or kept as spares. Turn off the amp each time that you exchange tubes.

 

[SodaJerk]

I just re-tubed the lot. To get to the preamp valves, I'd have to keep taking out the power amp valves each time. Didn't really have time to do that today, as my amp is at my band's lockup space rather than at home.

The noise has gone anyway, which was my main concern. Even with the gain dimed and the volume high, the amp is extraordinarily quiet, which is superb! It also sounds better than it used to, even if it is all Tung Sols. The ones that were in there before from the previous owner were two Groove Tubes and 4 Marshall branded tubes. Marshall? No wonder I was getting mids that could cut glass. Bleugh!

Sounds excellent now. Not too harsh. Nice and well rounded but still plenty of bark.

 

[viking22]

Well done and congrats !It's great when you solve the problem and get an even better sound !I'm also interested by your results because i have about 5 TungSol 12AX7's and i wasn't sure to use them with the Renegade.

 

[SodaJerk]

I suppose it would depend on what tubes you already have in there. It appears the previous owner of my Renegade put in 4 Marshall preamp tubes. Marshall make some great amps, but I don't rate their branded tubes one bit. Very harsh mid range to my ears. The Tung Sols really smoothened out the attack, and they are capable of lots of bark and gain without getting too noisy. Infact I get no noise at all when loud and the gain on full, whereas before I did get a little bit of a hum and buzz before one of the pre-amps popped.

Now that I have sorted the problem, I will be able to experiment with combining different tubes, but I won't be in too much of a hurry, as it really does sound better than it did originally with all Tung Sols.

Tubes types and combinations is obviously very subjective though

 

[Lucky Legs]

As per Hack's original post, I have this exact same problem with my less than one year old Renegade which is never gigged, and not often used, but excessive hissing noises (especially on the OD channel) is like being in a SWIRLING WIND TUNNEL!!... I heard this might be a power amp tube issue (the 2 x 6L6s and 2 x EL34s) but all the talk here is about replacing the 6x12AX7s.... I'm confused and not a tech expert either like HAck...what to do??? ASccording to an autmated reply I got from nate@egnateramps.com (which was largely to say that the correct email is now support@egnateramps.com) the following could be tried, but I'm wondering peoples views on plugging the guitar into the effects loop to 'test' whether its is the preamp tubes versus power amp tubes (could it ever be both, and how safe is this advice would it damage the amp plugging in like that)?:
"1) Verify all cables are plugged in and functioning properly; 2) For excessive white noise or hum, try plugging into different outlet; 3) With the above steps completed, now power the amp on put and put into play. Plug your guitar directly into your effects loop return. A. If you have a strong clear signal through your return it’s a good bad that the culprit is a shorted preamp tube. As preamp tubes are usually interconnected to some degree, the easiest way to verify this is to try a known good preamp systematically in each preamp location. When doing this you want to plug back into the front input. B. If you still have no signal or it is still popping or humming, the issue is in the power section. This section consist of the effects loop preamp tube, the phase inverter preamp tube, and the power tubes. All of our amps have fastblo fuses dedicated to protecting the power tubes, these are in most cases marked on the back panel as such. In the case of no signal through the effects loop return you want to examine this fuse first. If it looks burnt or the silver filament is missing, then the fuse is open and a shorted power tube is your issue."

Pete

PS TOOK IT TO AMP TECH HE SAID NOTHING WAS WRONG AND IT IS TYPICAL OF A POWERFUL HIGH GAIN 65W AMP OF THIS TYPE...I'M STILL NOT CONVINCED AS PER HACKS POST ITS VERY OFF PUTTING VERY LOUD EVEN THOUGH THE AMP PLAYS FINE!...WHAT TO DO, REPLICATE HACKS ATTEMPT AND CHANGE OUT ALL PREAMP 12AX7s? I DON'T EVEN KNOW HOW TO TAKE THEM OUT - WHAT IS THE SILVER METAL CASING AROUND THEM/ - YOU YOU PULL THE CASING OFF FIRST, AND HOW BY TWIST OR PULL, THEN HOW DO THE TUBES COME OUT - TWIST OR PULL - SHOULD THEY PULL/TWIST OUT EASILY WITHOUT FORCE? SHOULD I USE A RAG TO PULL THEM OUT OR INSULATED GLOVES? THANKS PETE

 

[shimmilou]

...plugging the guitar into the effects loop to 'test' whether its is the preamp tubes versus power amp tubes...

Yes, into the effects return, which bypasses the preamp. This is standard procedure, no harm in trying it.

 

[daviedog]

Called a tube shield. Remove by pressing down & turning counterclockwise 1/4 turn or so. Called a bayonet mount.
Use rubber cap snaffler to remove tube. Keep perspiration off glass.
Difficulty of removal will depend on bayonet design. My tweeker easy. Modern peavey, an abject Bitch..

 

[bruce egnater]

See the attached tube layout. If the channel two gain knob affects the noise level, V1 or V3 are the likely culprits. If the channel two gain knob does not affect the noise but the channel two volume knob does, then V3 or V4 are the ones. All of your tubes are NOT bad and don't need to be replaced. Do this small troubleshooting procedure and replace only the one that is indicated after you test it.

 

[Lucky Legs]

Thanks to Bruce (!!! Wow its you! , Shimmilou and Daviedog above....sorry for my delay in reply...

SHIMMILOU: Yep I took the chance plugged straight into effects return (didn't kill me or the amp! - the sound is clear compared to plugging into the front (although lower volume - but I wouldn't call it "strong" as Nate did above in his email copy) - perhaps as you say it by passes the pre-amp tubes hence lower volume plugged into the return jack? - there is some slight hiss though, but nothing like the excessively loud hiss that comes from plugged in front. I guess that says its the preamp tubes 12AX7s (at least one of them) - yep?

BRUCE: It occurs on both channels but channel 2 is definitely worse (louder) - its sounds like POURING DOWN RAIN. Yes channel 2 GAIN knob affects the noise level MOST (with volume set 1/2 way and master volume on full) - i.e. the more you turn up the gain up (clockwise) the louder the hiss (heavy rain) sound gets; and with a gain turned all the way off (anticlockwise) the VOLUME knob when turned up (clockwise) still does it a bit, BUT certainly NOT as much as gain does. This is the same on channel one (i.e. gain effects it most), but certainly not as loud as channel 2 is. FYI If I plug my Boss compression pedal in-line (front input) the hissing gets absolutely even worse/louder by 2-fold again! (on channel 1 and channel 2, as I recall). Additionally, there seems to be some 'popping' occur too if I hammer on the top E string (not sure if that is additional concern or part of the preamp tube prob?). This blog talks about some brands of 12AX7s having different "microphonics", so what brand of 12AX7s should I get, and where is best to get them - online or music store? BTW my 'amp tech' looked at the amp last week and he said "there is nothing wrong with it, as all high wattage high gain amps are the same" - I'm afraid I don't believe him (and wont be using him again), and I even implored him to look at this blog, and he flatly refused to (he said people on here don't know what they are talking about! pfttt!)- I told him this sound is hideously off-putting, I can't concentrate on music and jamming friends complain about it!

DAVIEDOG: Now I know, its just like a light bulb - I assume that is the same for preamp tubes and power tubes?

Cheers all, Bruce if you don't mind re-commenting on my feedback experiment above - wondering if that meets with your expectations, as it seems then since gain affects the noise most, then its V1 or V3 - can you confirm please?...so I gather I need only buy 2 (at most) x new 12AX7s?

Pete

 

[Lucky Legs]

BTW Daviedog I have a Tweaker too (15W combo) - its a great tone tweaking!...I would like to see the new "Detroit" model become available soon...

 

[Buckeyedog]

Just grab a few different AX7's like chinese and Tung Sol reissue are a few of my favorites. Sovtek LPS is great in the PI slot.

Start replacing/swapping them around. It's a breeze and you should always have spares on hand. i'm not a big fan of the JJ pre amp tubes, but you can always try those as well.

 

[Lucky Legs]

Thanks Bukeyedog, but I've never bought them before and so is Ebay online (and the like) OK, or do I need to seek them somewhere else (music store), and what if I can't find "reissue" ones?...I completely give up which one is is the "PI" slot [I assume that PI = phase inverter?]?
Thanks, Pete

Just grab a few different AX7's like chinese and Tung Sol reissue are a few of my favorites. Sovtek LPS is great in the PI slot.

Start replacing/swapping them around. It's a breeze and you should always have spares on hand. i'm not a big fan of the JJ pre amp tubes, but you can always try those as well.

 

[Buckeyedog]

Hey Pete, I'd get them from Valve Queen. She is a member here and is great to do business with. Also Dougs Tubes is very good as well as I have bought many tubes from him. And privately, Just42dave is also a member here and has tons of good pre and power tubes. Check out the classifieds here and/or just pm him and he'll give you a good deal. The PI slot is the closest to the power section, so basically the last Pre amp tube in the signal chain. And yes, Phase Inverter is what PI stands for.

 

[Lucky Legs]

Hey Buckeyedog thanks a million for all that, so greatly appreciated! I'll ask them at least, but today I found local here in Brisbane (QLD Australia) this mob http://evatco.com.au/index.htm (Mal and Carol) who have asked me to bring my amp and guitar in and I can check out a range of tubes. Also they have preliminary recommended the Svetlana 12ax7 for the PI position (I think they mean this one called NSS: http://evatco.com.au/sed1.htm )...The description says "rivals NOS types' but I'm afraid every step I take into this, I'm now bemused what NOS is compared to NSS...tubes must be like gem fossicking I gather, some shin brighter but you have to have the skill to find the shiny ones! ...anyhow can you explain NSS compared to NOS please?...why wouldn't I consider OLD OLD stock (OOS)? is ther such a thing?...I bet there is more get my head around yet? ... ... and what's the go with "gold pins" I hear about too...just more insulation agaisnt noise or great conductivity I gather, or none of the above! ??? LOL!... Cheers mate...Pete

 

[Buckeyedog]

Ha Ha, it can get crazy mate!!! That is cool that you can go try several. That is the best way. I'm not a big believer in the gold pin thing. But I'm sure many are.

Best way is to try several and see what you like best. Just remember that V1 or the very first pre amp tube in the signal will have the biggest impact on tone, so really swap that one around a lot. Good luck and keep us posted on your results.

This stuff can get very addicting!!!! And the great thing about Bruce's amps is that he makes them easy to change power tubes/bias as well. Lots of fun.

 

[Lucky Legs]

Buckeyedog, thanks for joining me in the craziness, you and Bruce have really made my day today and your added tips here are icing on the cake!...I truly I hope your support to me is returned 10 fold to you, thanks heaps mate, I can't thank you enough for your tips and advice and insights! I'll get to experimenting, give me a few days to report what I get installed first time around. BTW I have Richie Kotzen telecaster brownburst thick neck jumbo frets, its amazing! But my tech put 500 pot in it, and so I find that the first and 2nd position are little difference (or rather the first position neck pickup is not as scratchy as I would like, the 500 pot put extra oompf into it but smoothed it out more than I wanted...I'll get him to swtich it back to 250 pot I think...has neck Dimarzio Twang King and bridge Dimarzio Chopper T. anyhow, cheers and many thanks again! Pete

 

[daviedog]

From your complaint, the problem is in the preamp. Use a 12ax7 from your tweaker, which you said was functional. If this doesn't correct problem, your money is better spent on a fix. Tube obscura later.
Could be input jack, tube socket, carbon buildup, cracks etc.
After that, inside the amp, whole network leading to v1b, including passive component failure leading to first valve. This includes gain pot. Not the PI, which creates a mirror image of your input signal & is way downstream. Most amp techs TS from the input. I do it from the output. Little more old school.

Your amp tech is lazy, get a new one.

Can't remember mentioning lightbulbs. Get tin' old. Good luck Pete!

 

[Lucky Legs]

Hi Daviedog, Buckeydog and Bruce...

Daviedog: thanks for this extra insight, although translating that to an amp tech (as they are just words to me - i.e. no tech skills whatsover, I just play!) so I may be scoffed at if I dare to mention those things to the 'amp tech' - he had it for 4 days and then said there is "nothing wrong with it" , and I have no idea the extent he may have tested it to your accord above - but I doubt he did much at all, because I took it to one of Australia's best tube suppliers (and amp builder - Mal O'Neill www.evatco.com.au - who BTW makes personal amps for Troy Cassar Daly!!! specifically Troy's over head luggage amp the "TC-D30" O'Neill). Mall managed to help me get 50% of the hissing out, so its not all gone (see below tube replacement details we came uo with, for which I'm wondering if your advice above - Daviedog - changes given this outcome?

Outcome: Mal and I spent considerable time swapping and changing an array of different 12AX7s (side enote: it's hard to get that type of help anywhere and Mal's generosity saved me a packet on unnecessary experimentation and off the shelf purchases which could have lead nowhere!)...The most significant was Mal instantly discovered (as per Bruce's insight) that the V1 tube was dead! (so much for the 'amp tech' saying there was nothing wrong! ppfftt!!!!)...so V1 was changed to Buckeyedog's suggestion of SOVTEK LPS...(the tube that was in there was a TUNG-SOL "egnater" stamped 12AX7 - the rest [5] were RUBY "eganter" stamped 12AX7s) instantly was a 30% reduction in hiss from changing out the V1! (Thanks Buckeyedog for the LPS suggestion!)...then the following final's after further mutliple tryouts in the other 5 slots:
V1, V4 and V5: SOVETEK LPS
V6: SVETLANA NSS Twin Triode
V2 and V3: TUNG-SOL Twin Triode...

As mentioned there is a 50% reduction in noise hiss now, but I still want to get the other 50% out (or at least a little bit more)... I am hunching that its the TUNG-SOLs still doing it...???? FYI we noticed that trying either SOVTEK LPS or SVETLANA NSS in V2 or V3, brought is back to where it was before, so that is why we went with TUNG-SOLS in V2 and V3... we had run out of steam. I did email Mal afterwards (and will see him tonight at his CM club playing gig) whether those 2 positions might be improved further by other tubes Mal has - i.e. 12AX7 Genalex Gold Lion; Sovtek 12AX7WC; or the Mullard 12AX7M...he hasn't replied yet, so any thoughts from you guys would be MOST helpful on that? I also thought of getting a BOSS Noise Suppressor pedal... waste of time - yes/no?

Cheers all... Pete

 

[Lucky Legs]

Meant to say too, the added increase in TONE and harmonics from above tube layout was astronomical! So much sweeter, smoother, spingier, and tonal! ....Mal said keep the gain back, which I have (to barely 1/4), and increase volume and master, that helps quieten it, but its still 50% hissing (compared to previous horrendous noise!) if gain is brought up... I have not said anything to the 'amp tech' (he didn't charge me, but of course he didn't do anything either, which bemuses me!)... Bruce, could you kindly comment further on my reported outcome above and Daviedog's further suggestions? - should I try to find another amp tech to request review of the amp according to Daviedogs suggestions? I asked Mal, but he is actually trying to retire (unfortunately) and has his tube supply business up for sale (unfortunately also) - but if I do need to get further work done on it, I will try to talk him into it... thoughts???

 

[Lucky Legs]

1* Your amp tech is lazy, get a new one. *

2** Can't remember mentioning lightbulbs. Get tin' old. Good luck Pete!

Coments for Daviedog:
* ...yep I'm trying

** ..."lighbulbs"? ...neither can I!...also get tin' old too + intolerant to lazy 'amp techs' screwing with my playing time!