Help with W/D/W levels with Tri-Avatar Chorus

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drspearing

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Greetings!

I'm having some trouble with my W/D/W/ setup. Running my main amp (Wizard MCII) as the center. Running a line out into the Free the Tone Tri-Avatar, stereo out to a Strymon Timeline and BigSky and then into a Fryette 2/50/2 power amp. While the Tri-Avatar can handle a +7db input level, I can't seem to get the level set right. Whenever I get the input level set to where I can hear chorus, it seems to distort as I hear a hissing/distorting sound for about a second after I pick a note. I can hear the chorus with the "distortion", or hear no chorus and no distortion.

I have tried with just the Tri-Avatar (i.e. no Timeline and no BigSky) with the same results. I have tried every setting combination on the Tri-Avatar. Level high and low, mix from 100% dry to 100% wet, the Depth settings all over the place. I have tried 3 different line level methods. Direct out from my amp, using a Suhr Iso line out box and a Suhr Reactive Load.

I have also tried a friend's TC SCF with the same result as well. The TC can also support a line level signal. There is an input level on the TC and it had to be at almost 0 to not clip and it had to clip a bit to hear any chorus... with the distortion. I must be doing something wrong.

I'm running the level on the Fryette 2/50/2 levels at about 10:30. Should I have it higher?

Thanks in advance!
 
drspearing said:
Greetings!

I'm having some trouble with my W/D/W/ setup. Running my main amp (Wizard MCII) as the center. Running a line out into the Free the Tone Tri-Avatar, stereo out to a Strymon Timeline and BigSky and then into a Fryette 2/50/2 power amp. While the Tri-Avatar can handle a +7db input level, I can't seem to get the level set right. Whenever I get the input level set to where I can hear chorus, it seems to distort as I hear a hissing/distorting sound for about a second after I pick a note. I can hear the chorus with the "distortion", or hear no chorus and no distortion.

I have tried with just the Tri-Avatar (i.e. no Timeline and no BigSky) with the same results. I have tried every setting combination on the Tri-Avatar. Level high and low, mix from 100% dry to 100% wet, the Depth settings all over the place. I have tried 3 different line level methods. Direct out from my amp, using a Suhr Iso line out box and a Suhr Reactive Load.

I have also tried a friend's TC SCF with the same result as well. The TC can also support a line level signal. There is an input level on the TC and it had to be at almost 0 to not clip and it had to clip a bit to hear any chorus... with the distortion. I must be doing something wrong.

I'm running the level on the Fryette 2/50/2 levels at about 10:30. Should I have it higher?

Thanks in advance!
Click to expand...
and we are sure the tri works properly in front of the amp when you plug gtr straight in?
 
sounds like an impedance mismatch and i feel your pain. i dealt with that trying to use the H9 tricera patch and the Jackson New Wave chorus. it worked but was very touchy, easy to clip, and not sounding as clear as when using on my pedalboard.

IMG_4757.jpeg
here’s the latest batch of chorus crack i’ve got brewing.

after a ton of experimentation recently, i started dropping different chorus pedals in and out of the loops of the 2290. the pedals seem happier in the loops of that unit.
this example was the lil wave in loop 4, and the tc scf in the last stereo loop 5 of the 2290, bypassing the spx 900:



after having recently sent my intermittent arion and vintage small clone to wayne at @griff10672 (thanks again pedal wizard!) for an overhaul, i now have the 3 chorus pedals you see (except the red one which is a Griffin Atomic Punk Overdrive) all running in series (arion->lil wave->tc) mono in loop 4 of the 2290, and the spx 900 in loop 5 running (what else?!) symphonic stereo into the 2290 delays.

to me it’s sounding more landau ripple—voila:

 
mentoneman said:
sounds like an impedance mismatch and i feel your pain. i dealt with that trying to use the H9 tricera patch and the Jackson New Wave chorus. it worked but was very touchy, easy to clip, and not sounding as clear as when using on my pedalboard.

View attachment 366248
here’s the latest batch of chorus crack i’ve got brewing.

after a ton of experimentation recently, i started dropping different chorus pedals in and out of the loops of the 2290. the pedals seem happier in the loops of that unit.
this example was the lil wave in loop 4, and the tc scf in the last stereo loop 5 of the 2290, bypassing the spx 900:



after having recently sent my intermittent arion and vintage small clone to wayne at @griff10672 (thanks again pedal wizard!) for an overhaul, i now have the 3 chorus pedals you see (except the red one which is a Griffin Atomic Punk Overdrive) all running in series (arion->lil wave->tc) mono in loop 4 of the 2290, and the spx 900 in loop 5 running (what else?!) symphonic stereo into the 2290 delays.

to me it’s sounding more landau ripple—voila:

Click to expand...

that Arion is such a great chorus !!!
 
Thanks for the replies!

Great sounding rig mentoneman!

Can I do anything in my case if it is an impedance issue? Maybe run it into a buffer first? Or maybe a Lele P-Split that has a transformer? I don't have the room for a 2290 in my rig.
 
The tri states its input impedance is 500k minimum. Going into the Timeline doesn’t seem to clip. Its input impedance is 1 meg.
 
The Suhr reactive load has an unbalanced output impedance of 6k.
 
griff10672 said:
that Arion is such a great chorus !!!
Click to expand...
i’m so happy you brought it back to life. i swear it sounds better than i ever remember it sounding since you replaced the switch and cleaned it up.

and for some reason, it handles the input level from the 2290 loop better than all the rest of my chorus pedals thus it is first in my chorus pedal chain.

fyi i also had the later sch-z made in sri lanka which was not even close to the same magic, and the vertex sch-z landau mod which sounded way better than stock and had the improved switch,

but the OG sch-1 MIJ is gold.
 
drspearing said:
The Suhr reactive load has an unbalanced output impedance of 6k.
Click to expand...
it might be a good idea to reach out to Suhr or RJM and ask if they have a recommendation on what product would work best in your case.

something that does what the radial reamp does—line to instrument level interface- so maybe it’s a call to sweetwater.
https://www.sweetwater.com/store/de...92e10a4cd53119923cc66d0fbe103523&gclsrc=3p.ds

the trick is preserving your tone, keeping small and affordable.
i’ve used things in the past like ebtech impedence level shifters and the behringer splitter mixer for audio in permanent install video systems but that’s way overkill for what we’re talking about. whirlwind makes fixed inline impedance adapters to pad line level signal i’ve used in live audio applications too. just not in my gtr rigs.
 
Oh, I forgot to reply to the question on if the chorus works without noise in front of the amp.

It does.
 
drspearing said:
Oh, I forgot to reply to the question on if the chorus works without noise in front of the amp.

It does.
Click to expand...
just an fyi

i was on the horn with sweetwater and happened to inquire about a product that addressed line to instrument impedance level mismatching and they agreed the radial reamp would be the proper tool for the job.

a small mixer with in/out level control may also work…
 
Thanks for asking about that. It also does the same thing in the effects loop of my amp. I wouldn't think that would be an impedance issue but maybe. The Tri should be able to be used in a loop, right?

If I skip the Tri, and go into the Timeline... no noise issues. Tri supposedly can handle +7 at 500K impedance and Timeline can handle +8 at 1 meg impedance. I'm in contact with Free the Tone. Maybe mine is bad.
 
drspearing said:
Thanks for asking about that. It also does the same thing in the effects loop of my amp. I wouldn't think that would be an impedance issue but maybe. The Tri should be able to be used in a loop, right?

If I skip the Tri, and go into the Timeline... no noise issues. Tri supposedly can handle +7 at 500K impedance and Timeline can handle +8 at 1 meg impedance. I'm in contact with Free the Tone. Maybe mine is bad.
Click to expand...
could be faulty but if it works fine in front of amp and freaks out in the loop, sounds like it’s being hit too hard by the loop’s line level for it to operate properly.

i’ve experimented with my H9, TC SCF reish, Jackson New Wave chorus, Lil Wave chorus, Arion, Boss DD-500 and Yamaha Magic Stomp in my rack, being hit by line levels.

although they are all supposedly capable of handling up to +6-8 db input signals, and perform flawlessly at high z instrument levels in front of the amp, most struggle to maintain proper headroom below clipping as line level input signal voltage peaks can easily exceed the pedal’s limits.

and why many rack fx are designed to handle a wide range of +4-+20 db line level sources with input attenuation and metering to balace it.

IMG_4816.png


https://rangeofsounds.com/blog/can-guitar-pedals-take-line-level/
 
Thanks for the information! I would LOVE a TERC!!! But not at $4K+.

I was finally able to capture a recording of the noise and sent it to FTT. They said:

"The impedance should not be a problem since it is designed to be able to take low to hi impedance signals. However, to test the hypothesis would you try to connect the TA-2H after the TIME LINE? If the problem stays, that would mean it is not due to the impedance."

I had already tried it in my amp's effects loop, as opposed to the line out method, as well as placing it after the Timeline in the signal chain. The noise is still there.

I just ordered an Eventide Tricera Chorus that has a line/guitar level switch. Will compare it with the FTT and see. Comparison will be tone and MIDI implementation.
 
fun huh?
one biggie is that not all amp fx loops are alike.

this is a funny example straight out of the mesa boogie Mark III owner’s manual addressing their loop playing nicely with others:

IMG_4818.jpeg


i was tweaking on a tsc inspired pedal chain through my mackie line mixer last night so i could monitor levels carefully with in/out levels, meters, and DI through headphones to check for clipping anywhere.

IMG_4811.jpeg

comp->lil wave->H9 tricera->stereo out to mackie 15-16
1 aux out to mono in/stereo out yamaha magic stomp using symphonic or pitch C, returning to mixer in 2 parallel stereo channels.

fun!
 
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