Hetfield, "the Ride the Lightning amp was a...

[RevDrucifer]

James is known to dislike compression. In fact Bob Rock mentioned that he even didn't want his guitars going through the mix bus comp on the black album so Bob had to group the drums vocals and bass and route the guitars to their own uncompressed bus.

No shit. I was actually going to question how accurate that was because I always viewed the Rock/James relationship as "We're going to trust what this dude says because his resume speaks for itself", so I googleygooked it really quick-

OK, so I’m sure you’ve been waiting for me to ask you a Metallica question, right? Is there a story, even an untold one, from the “Black” album that you could share? Studio stuff, I’m talking about.
Bob Rock: A lot of things have been said about the “Black” album. OK, when we started to mix I used the bus compressor on the SSL. That’s how I got it aggressive. So, I had the first mix in shape and James came in. He said, “I don’t want any compression on my guitars.” I said, “Well, this is what I do.” He just said, “Nope.” I had to solve the problem. I wasn’t sure what I was going to do. Luckily, I was at Hansen’s and they had a 6K console, which has three busses, A, B, and C. They go to the main bus. SSL had just released the compressor in a rack unit. So, I figured out I’d use that on the A bus, James’ guitars on the B bus, and everything else on the C bus. That was how I ended up working the record. Otherwise, if I couldn’t solve the problem, I wasn’t going to be doing the record. It was a complete workaround. That’s why the guitars are crushing without compression. That’s just the guitars. They’re in-your-face crushing. The drum compression doesn’t affect James’ guitars. I had a similar story with Tommy on “Dr. Feelgood”. He had his monitors live on stage. When we went into the studio, he said, “I need some bottom on the headphones.” So, I got some monitors and put them behind his kit. People were like, “Bob, you can’t do that.” I said, “Well, that’s what he wants.” So, I put these huge subbies behind the kit, and I put a little bit of the sub in the kit. He felt good, played amazing, and the sub ended up filling the room. Now, that’s insane. Most engineers won’t do that. But I was just doing a workaround once again for the artist. To make them comfortable.

Definitely interesting.

I'm also not a fan of putting compression on distorted guitars, but for the modern metal, drop-tuned chugging stuff, a multi-band comp is a GREAT way at taming those lower mids/80hz without compressing the whole signal. A multi-band comp is only compressing specific frequencies when they cross the threshold.

Here's an example I recorded really quick, the first part is with the multi-band off, the 2nd part is with it on. The main tone doesn't change, it just scoops away that useless thud that'd be taken out during the mixing phase. This is one of the hardest points to get across to some guitar players, like every one of them I've ever recorded. They'll hear that bass in the room and say "Dude, that's all the balls!", but try mixing that with an actual bass and all it'll do is sound like balls.



You can still retain the bass/thickness, it just gets rid of the shit you don't want.

I attached a pic of the MBC block in the AxeFX III so one can see how it's arranged.

 

[DanTravis62]

exactly. the more important question is: do I listen to any records he has produced? and the answer is unfortunately no.

also compression on guitars is the anti-heavy metal. that’s for country.

I've *heard* countless records of his on satellite radio, along with all of the other boring modern metal bands whose engineers copied Andy's style.

But do I *listen* to any of them, like by choice, on purpose? Not unless you count Andy sneaps own band Sabbat, and the Accept reunion records.

And as good as those accept records are, the guitar sound gets tiresome to listen to.

 

[NeilOConnor]

Yeah it's rare to hear a truly original sounding modern metal production. Back in the early 90s albums had their own unique sonic signature. Chaos A.D, Burn My Eyes, Black Album, Demanufacture, Divine Intervention etc... All instantly identifiable.

On numerous occasions I've checked out a modern metal album on YouTube and been unaware the album has finished and YouTube is now auto-playing a different band, only realising when the vocals come in.

 

[NeilOConnor]

No shit. I was actually going to question how accurate that was because I always viewed the Rock/James relationship as "We're going to trust what this dude says because his resume speaks for itself", so I googleygooked it really quick-



Definitely interesting.

I'm also not a fan of putting compression on distorted guitars, but for the modern metal, drop-tuned chugging stuff, a multi-band comp is a GREAT way at taming those lower mids/80hz without compressing the whole signal. A multi-band comp is only compressing specific frequencies when they cross the threshold.

Here's an example I recorded really quick, the first part is with the multi-band off, the 2nd part is with it on. The main tone doesn't change, it just scoops away that useless thud that'd be taken out during the mixing phase. This is one of the hardest points to get across to some guitar players, like every one of them I've ever recorded. They'll hear that bass in the room and say "Dude, that's all the balls!", but try mixing that with an actual bass and all it'll do is sound like balls.



You can still retain the bass/thickness, it just gets rid of the shit you don't want.

I attached a pic of the MBC block in the AxeFX III so one can see how it's arranged.

Yeah man, I'd be often lost without the Waves C4 multiband comp. A lifesaver for sure. Hetfield's ability to get those super consistent palm mutes and a steady controlled low end with no assistance is impressive.

No doubt it's mostly down to his flawless technique but I think that the "crunch berries" IIC+ certainly helped. He had a bunch of those boogies but said there was something special about that particular one.

 

[fearhk213]

Yeah man, I'd be often lost without the Waves C4 multiband comp. A lifesaver for sure. Hetfield's ability to get those super consistent palm mutes and a steady controlled low end with no assistance is impressive.

No doubt it's mostly down to his flawless technique but I think that the "crunch berries" IIC+ certainly helped. He had a bunch of those boogies but said there was something special about that particular one.

There may not have been any buss comp or multiband, but there was definitely some eq going on. There is not nearly as much bass and low mids information as one would expect once you hear them isolated. I’m not discounting his playing by any stretch or his amp, but sucking out those problem frequencies is another way to skin that cat as well.

 

[acalaf]

not sure what you are hearing but I hear a monster bass on those Enter sandman tracks. Like the bottom end is warm big pillow. no compression either. Maybe you are expecting recto type low mids and their absence is intepreted as lack of bottom end. But the bass frequencies on that track, to my ear, are probably as much as you will ever hear on a record.

 

[acalaf]

No shit. I was actually going to question how accurate that was because I always viewed the Rock/James relationship as "We're going to trust what this dude says because his resume speaks for itself", so I googleygooked it really quick-



Definitely interesting.

I'm also not a fan of putting compression on distorted guitars, but for the modern metal, drop-tuned chugging stuff, a multi-band comp is a GREAT way at taming those lower mids/80hz without compressing the whole signal. A multi-band comp is only compressing specific frequencies when they cross the threshold.

Here's an example I recorded really quick, the first part is with the multi-band off, the 2nd part is with it on. The main tone doesn't change, it just scoops away that useless thud that'd be taken out during the mixing phase. This is one of the hardest points to get across to some guitar players, like every one of them I've ever recorded. They'll hear that bass in the room and say "Dude, that's all the balls!", but try mixing that with an actual bass and all it'll do is sound like balls.



You can still retain the bass/thickness, it just gets rid of the shit you don't want.

I attached a pic of the MBC block in the AxeFX III so one can see how it's arranged.

thanks for the comparison. I much prefer the first clip. The second one takes away most of the punch in the sound. The second one might “fit better” in a mix, but I would turn it off within the first minute of listening due to its “neutered” sound.

 

[psychodave]

Yeah man, I'd be often lost without the Waves C4 multiband comp. A lifesaver for sure. Hetfield's ability to get those super consistent palm mutes and a steady controlled low end with no assistance is impressive.

No doubt it's mostly down to his flawless technique but I think that the "crunch berries" IIC+ certainly helped. He had a bunch of those boogies but said there was something special about that particular one.

An interesting note on Crunch Berries... Mike B said the original power transformer blew up and Mike ended up putting in a Mark IV transformer.

 

[fusedbrain]

Just a reminder that you can cop a multi-band compression thing with an analog comp on the guitar bus by inserting a 31 band graphic eq in the side chain, and boost the frequencies you want to reel in, and cutting everything else. You can sculpt the tone by compresing your selected frequencies, and your guitar bus gets the tonal lift of the makeup gain amp in the compressor. Api 2500 or a fatso kills for this application.
And the graphic eq can be any piece of shit you have lying around because its not in the audio path, just the side chain.

 

[fearhk213]

not sure what you are hearing but I hear a monster bass on those Enter sandman tracks. Like the bottom end is warm big pillow. no compression either. Maybe you are expecting recto type low mids and their absence is intepreted as lack of bottom end. But the bass frequencies on that track, to my ear, are probably as much as you will ever hear on a record.

Perhaps I should have added more context to what I was getting at. The Black Album is a huge sounding album and the guitar tone is one that is referenced by lots of guitar players as being massive as well for good reason. When they're isolated, the guitars don't sound as big as us guitar players might expect based on how they sound in the mix. I'm not implying they're lacking or small sounding isolated, just pointing out the difference when isolated vs in the mix with the bass and drum support. And then when you hear it isolated, you can hear that there are some frequencies carved out that help tighten up those bass and low mid areas that can be problematic when chugging. I'd be curious to find out if they did anything like suck out out some specific frequencies pretty aggressively and then boost something else to add back some body/punch.

 

[RevDrucifer]

thanks for the comparison. I much prefer the first clip. The second one takes away most of the punch in the sound. The second one might “fit better” in a mix, but I would turn it off within the first minute of listening due to its “neutered” sound.

You wouldn’t even realize it were taken out if it were in a proper mix. This is the same discussion I’ve had in the studio time and time again with the guys who refuse to dial their amps in to work for what they’re trying to achieve on a recording. Time and time again. It’s always the dudes who refuse to turn down, play with too much gain and bass. Without fail, all that shit gets pulled out with an EQ during the mixing phase because that flubby ass sound does nothing for “punch”, it just stacks up with the bass and kick drum and sounds like a pile of ass, effectively doing the exact opposite of what you’re thinking it does.

 

[RevDrucifer]

Yeah man, I'd be often lost without the Waves C4 multiband comp. A lifesaver for sure. Hetfield's ability to get those super consistent palm mutes and a steady controlled low end with no assistance is impressive.

No doubt it's mostly down to his flawless technique but I think that the "crunch berries" IIC+ certainly helped. He had a bunch of those boogies but said there was something special about that particular one.

Well, they spent forever getting the guitar tones on that album and with the right mic combination and EQ’ing, you can get there. And with the graphic EQ as well as the regular bass control on a Mark, you can suck enough of that thumping out and if needed, add some bass in in post.

But yeah, I was explaining the importance of Hetfield’s right hand to my wife last weekend in one of my “I know you don’t care, buuuuuut” sessions.

The C4 was the first MBC I ever used and outside of the one in my AxeFX, it’s the only one I currently have. I use that thing all over the place, pretty much doing the exact same thing for bass, keys and sometimes my vocals.

 

[RevDrucifer]

Perhaps I should have added more context to what I was getting at. The Black Album is a huge sounding album and the guitar tone is one that is referenced by lots of guitar players as being massive as well for good reason. When they're isolated, the guitars don't sound as big as us guitar players might expect based on how they sound in the mix. I'm not implying they're lacking or small sounding isolated, just pointing out the difference when isolated vs in the mix with the bass and drum support. And then when you hear it isolated, you can hear that there are some frequencies carved out that help tighten up those bass and low mid areas that can be problematic when chugging. I'd be curious to find out if they did anything like suck out out some specific frequencies pretty aggressively and then boost something else to add back some body/punch.

Agreed, 110%.

The isolated tracks from that album are the example I used every time I‘d get into the “I dunno man, my amp is sounding pretty good in here” situation where the dude who has never once tried mixing anything but beer and pizza but suddenly know more than the people who actually do the mixing and have a passion for it. That’s also why I chuckled at the idea of Hetfield telling Bob Rock he doesn’t want compression on his guitar. It could be used in so many different ways without being apparent, it’s kind of an open-ended statement without knowing specifically how it was being applied.

I advise anyone who has the slightest interest in getting your ideal tone on a recording to do just a little research on how it‘s done, especially in the context of high gain tones, hell, some clean tones need a lot of doctoring too, depending on how boomy the amp is. You can watch any YouTube tutorial on mixing high gain guitars and they’ll all say the same thing, cut all the bullshit at 80hz because it’s useless and is only going to turn your mix to shit.

 

[RevDrucifer]

Just a reminder that you can cop a multi-band compression thing with an analog comp on the guitar bus by inserting a 31 band graphic eq in the side chain, and boost the frequencies you want to reel in, and cutting everything else. You can sculpt the tone by compresing your selected frequencies, and your guitar bus gets the tonal lift of the makeup gain amp in the compressor. Api 2500 or a fatso kills for this application.
And the graphic eq can be any piece of shit you have lying around because its not in the audio path, just the side chain.

Nice! That‘s pretty slick!

I’m almost entirely in the box for now, but we’re moving back up to New England and buying a house with a barn in the backyard, which I’ll be converting into a studio. I simply can’t fit anything else in my current, 12x12 one!

 

[ZEEGLER]

Yeah it's rare to hear a truly original sounding modern metal production. Back in the early 90s albums had their own unique sonic signature. Chaos A.D, Burn My Eyes, Black Album, Demanufacture, Divine Intervention etc... All instantly identifiable.

On numerous occasions I've checked out a modern metal album on YouTube and been unaware the album has finished and YouTube is now auto-playing a different band, only realising when the vocals come in.

That's a good point. I haven't really heard any newer metal lately with anything unique tone-wise. I've been having a hard time getting into anything newer. The only band that comes to mind is Dyscarnate. I really love their stuff and I'm kinda surprised they aren't more popular.

 

[SBlue]

Yeah it's rare to hear a truly original sounding modern metal production. Back in the early 90s albums had their own unique sonic signature. Chaos A.D, Burn My Eyes, Black Album, Demanufacture, Divine Intervention etc... All instantly identifiable.

On numerous occasions I've checked out a modern metal album on YouTube and been unaware the album has finished and YouTube is now auto-playing a different band, only realising when the vocals come in

We're living the McDonalds era of music. It's not only for Metal, but for most every genre out there.
Vast majority taste the same, and they don't do you any good.

 

[Devin]

I saw the comments about Sneap and just wanted to say that Sneap produced Stuck Mojo's "Rising" album and that is probably my single favorite heavy guitar tone ever. Never heard anything like it again since then honestly

 

[RevDrucifer]

I saw the comments about Sneap and just wanted to say that Sneap produced Stuck Mojo's "Rising" album and that is probably my single favorite heavy guitar tone ever. Never heard anything like it again since then honestly

I have a hard time faulting Sneap for anything that came as a result of his production techniques. Not his fault everyone wanted to copy his style. While I’m also tired of hearing what seems to be the same mix/drum samples on so many albums, he’s done some great shit over the years. I’ll never not love the guitar tones on Killswitch Engage’s The End Of Heartache album.

Toby Wright also did two fanfuckingtastic albums in the early 00’s that I think were on par with Andy’s work, maybe even a little less sterile than Andy’s; Sevendust’s Animosity and Dark New Day’s 12 Year Silence. Some of the best Mark IV tones and while there’s samples on the drums, they still sound human. The drum mix of Animosity is fucking sick, when he’s doing fast double bass stuff, you can hear the variation in each hit, which is pretty much nonexistent these days and post-Sneap.

Thanks for the Stuck Mojo reminder; I’ve been meaning to get their albums because for some reason, they dropped off my radar years ago. I remember loving the shit out of them and Rich Ward’s tone when I heard them back in the day. Little Sevendust/Dark New Day connection there with Corey Lowery, too!

 

[VESmedic]

Agreed, 110%.

The isolated tracks from that album are the example I used every time I‘d get into the “I dunno man, my amp is sounding pretty good in here” situation where the dude who has never once tried mixing anything but beer and pizza but suddenly know more than the people who actually do the mixing and have a passion for it. That’s also why I chuckled at the idea of Hetfield telling Bob Rock he doesn’t want compression on his guitar. It could be used in so many different ways without being apparent, it’s kind of an open-ended statement without knowing specifically how it was being applied.

I advise anyone who has the slightest interest in getting your ideal tone on a recording to do just a little research on how it‘s done, especially in the context of high gain tones, hell, some clean tones need a lot of doctoring too, depending on how boomy the amp is. You can watch any YouTube tutorial on mixing high gain guitars and they’ll all say the same thing, cut all the bullshit at 80hz because it’s useless and is only going to turn your mix to shit.

Yes... watch any YouTube tutorial, narrated by YouTube clowns who have no career making records, have never done a real record, but make a career out of YouTube telling people how to make records... real truth: the people who actually make records for a living and get the tones we love, don’t have time to make YouTube videos, because they are actually working....


Also, it’s not always true to arbitrarily cut at 80hz and below, I know many records where the low end on guitars was cut lower than this, just for what it’s worth... there’s no “rules” here.

 

[Tone Monster]

Perhaps I should have added more context to what I was getting at. The Black Album is a huge sounding album and the guitar tone is one that is referenced by lots of guitar players as being massive as well for good reason. When they're isolated, the guitars don't sound as big as us guitar players might expect based on how they sound in the mix. I'm not implying they're lacking or small sounding isolated, just pointing out the difference when isolated vs in the mix with the bass and drum support. And then when you hear it isolated, you can hear that there are some frequencies carved out that help tighten up those bass and low mid areas that can be problematic when chugging. I'd be curious to find out if they did anything like suck out out some specific frequencies pretty aggressively and then boost something else to add back some body/punch.

I’ve always thought this as a hypothesis. Track with very little bottom end....you lose all that low end energy and lose control...then with a money eq (pultec, etc.) dial back in the controlled thump. Hetfield is a god playing wise for sure. But if it was just him and his amp the demos would sound almost as on point. NOPE! Way too much bass and bass energy and it’s all over the place.