How a woofy bassy guitar tone can obscure a bass tone...

[petejt]

Heaps of bass in a guitar tone can make it sound massive...on its own...

But in a mix it can get hidden and sound muddy, or just obscure the bass player.



Lots of folks are aware of the "lack of bass" on Metallica's ...And Justice For All, and are also aware of the 'enhanced bass' remixes posted on YouTube.


Below however is the track for Blackened, minus the guitars. Bass, drums, vocals, and some occasional background harmony guitars are present.

To my ears the mix is quite good. The bass sounds clear and present, although could sound more thunderous if played by fingerpicking rather than a plectrum.



Now here is the guitar tracks, in isolation...

Sure enough the crunchy evil razor-sharp top end rips your head off like a seething pitbull terrier foaming at the mouth, but to make up for the lack of midrange body, the bass frequencies are cranked to the great shithouse in the sky. On its own, it actually sounds rather woofy and cloudy.
It could be an overlay track to double the bottom-string notes, using an extra-bassy tone. But still...playing this against the bass clip, it just eats it up almost completely- all you hear is the big bassy guitar and some clicks from the actual bass guitar. If you lower the volume of the bass clip a bit, you get the master mix of the song.

 

[Digital Jams]

Good think I am in a good mood today or I would be unloading regarding this topic.........................

 

[petejt]

Good think I am in a good mood today or I would be unloading regarding this topic.........................

 

[BeZo]

That's right! You damn guitar players dial your shit in right and stay off of my bass frequencies!

 

[petejt]

That's right! You damn guitar players dial your shit in right and stay off of my bass frequencies!

It goes both ways though. If both James Hetfield dialled down some bass in his guitar signal, and Jason Newsted fingerpicked to get a lower register timbre, then both would be heard clearly and it'd sound monstrous.

 

[thegame]

The recording of AJFA actually has tons of deep, rumbling low end. Its sitting at a very low hz. so that quality is inaudible on the radio or youtube clips. Pump it through a good hifi system (not a home theater setup) and it will move your bowels.

The OP makes some good points, but all that aside I think this sounds killer :

AJFA's "flaws" give it its unmistakable character. It would not be as effective with a traditional rock guitar tone.

 

[roadifier]

The recording of AJFA actually has tons of deep, rumbling low end. Its sitting at a very low hz. so that quality is inaudible on the radio or youtube clips. Pump it through a good hifi system (not a home theater setup) and it will move your bowels.

The OP makes some good points, but all that aside I think this sounds killer :

AJFA's "flaws" give it its unmistakable character. It would not be as effective with a traditional rock guitar tone.

I don't like those clips with the bass. They make the bass too loud in it. it would sound better if the bass wasn't so loud.

 

[VigierUSA]

The recording of AJFA actually has tons of deep, rumbling low end. Its sitting at a very low hz. so that quality is inaudible on the radio or youtube clips. Pump it through a good hifi system (not a home theater setup) and it will move your bowels.

The OP makes some good points, but all that aside I think this sounds killer :

AJFA's "flaws" give it its unmistakable character. It would not be as effective with a traditional rock guitar tone.

I think that clip sounds badass! This mix kinda reminds me of Rust In Peace - everything has its space and it's all right in your face.

Wait...

Honestly, the guitar tone on AJFA never really did anything for me. I always thought of it as like a proto-Dimebag tone that isn't quite there. Way to 'sterile' sounding for my tastes. I much prefer the tones on Ride the Lightning.

 

[japetus]

I honestly think I like it better with the loud bass and the guitars turned down!!

 

[petejt]

The recording of AJFA actually has tons of deep, rumbling low end. Its sitting at a very low hz. so that quality is inaudible on the radio or youtube clips. Pump it through a good hifi system (not a home theater setup) and it will move your bowels.

The OP makes some good points

Thanks man.

I need to find my ...And Justice For All album and play it to compare it properly.

but all that aside I think this sounds killer :

AJFA's "flaws" give it its unmistakable character. It would not be as effective with a traditional rock guitar tone.

That sounds AWESOME!! I agree that the album would not sound as effective with a traditional rock guitar tone. It needs that seething edge. I just think it would have been more effective if the guitar tone had more mids to it to give it some body, so it punches you in the stomach while also ripping your head off with razor-sharp teeth. Coupled with a strong, pumping bass tone, together you would really feel the lyrics like "Hammer of justice crushes you, overpower".

 

[TheMagicEight]

The recording of AJFA actually has tons of deep, rumbling low end. Its sitting at a very low hz. so that quality is inaudible on the radio or youtube clips. Pump it through a good hifi system (not a home theater setup) and it will move your bowels.

The OP makes some good points, but all that aside I think this sounds killer :

AJFA's "flaws" give it its unmistakable character. It would not be as effective with a traditional rock guitar tone.

Sounds great!

 

[mentoneman]

i agree but on the same token, a woofy bass guitar can destroy a live mix too.

i often have to request that a bassist turn down their bass frequencies on their amps during soundcheck when mixing live sound, which traditionally tends to go over like a lead balloon.

my other difficulty with bass is when the player goes direct, relying on me to provide them their total sound via stage monitor, and once we get everything dialed in during soundcheck, after asking them to, and believing they did, provide me full levels at sc, they "cheat" during performance and turn up their bass volume on the guitar to twice what they were giving me at sc. mush.

i understand in that DI situation having a little something in reserve in case things get going and they need some extra pop but set it up in sc with bass volume full, then roll back from there.

 

[university81]

The recording of AJFA actually has tons of deep, rumbling low end. Its sitting at a very low hz. so that quality is inaudible on the radio or youtube clips. Pump it through a good hifi system (not a home theater setup) and it will move your bowels.

The OP makes some good points, but all that aside I think this sounds killer :

AJFA's "flaws" give it its unmistakable character. It would not be as effective with a traditional rock guitar tone.

first CD i got as a kid, listened to it so much while looking at liner notes i had the song lengths pretty much memorised lol

the bass is effectively eaten up, but it never really bothered me, i'm not too keen on the enhanced bass version, too clicky with the plectrum and makes it sound boomy

 

[fek]

I think that clip sounds badass! This mix kinda reminds me of Rust In Peace - everything has its space and it's all right in your face.

Wait...

Honestly, the guitar tone on AJFA never really did anything for me. I always thought of it as like a proto-Dimebag tone that isn't quite there. Way to 'sterile' sounding for my tastes. I much prefer the tones on Ride the Lightning.

That would make a sweet 80's vintage video game soundtrack! Maybe a racing game or even F-Zero on Super Nintendo.

 

[Ventura]

That's right! You damn guitar players dial your shit in right and stay off of my bass frequencies!

Classic...

 

[Atropos_Project]

God bless the good old all bass, all treble, no mid guitar tone setting.

"but it sounds sooo good on its own!!"

 

[Atropos_Project]

What a good bass / guitar mix might sound like for metal. Drums too, while we're at it.

 

[lester]

Bass players are like children, they should be seen and not heard.

 

[Spaceboy]

I absolutely HATE having too much bass in my guitar tone. I'm actually prone to dialing more than necessary in attempt to retain clarity. Jam those high mids and let everything else sit smooth, and it will sound awesome, at least for metal... many metalheads like to scoop the mids, and go overboard with bass and highs. I don't understand!

 

[petejt]

I absolutely HATE having too much bass in my guitar tone. I'm actually prone to dialing more than necessary in attempt to retain clarity. Jam those high mids and let everything else sit smooth, and it will sound awesome, at least for metal... many metalheads like to scoop the mids, and go overboard with bass and highs. I don't understand!

I think the reason for scooping the mids is so that the top end sounds really seething & "evil", that nasty evil screeching sound. I do like it at times.


Yet, I think this is one of the most evil-sounding howling rhythm guitar tones of all, yet it's all mids!