Huge impedance myth?!? Mismatching heads and cabs ok...?!?

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Why is impedance mismatching so dangerous?

The crux of the problem lies in the inductive nature of the output tranny. Inductive loads are pretty special things, since they STORE energy in a magnetic field. A property of this effect, as has been pointed out, is that the voltage can soar to levels above the supply voltage in the amplifier-- sometimes WAY above. You can't do that with any other kind of load other than inductive.

Now the transformer doesn't have an impedance of its own; it only reflects an impedance from one winding to another in proportion to the turns (or voltage-- they are the same) ratio squared.

So imagine that you've got an open secondary. This impedance is for all intents and purposes infinite. Thus, regardless of the turns ratio, the primary impedance is infinite as well. (leakage inductance and parasitic capacitance-- two unavoidable nasties of real-world trannies-- will limit this to some finite number less than infinity, but suffice it to say its really high.) This means that the primary will act like a constant current source, attempting to keep changes in currents through its windings to a minimum. This will be an important point later.

Operating into such a humungous load impedance will cause the plate to swing HUGE voltages, according to V=IR. Especially with tetrodes/pentodes, which are much better at cranking out current, the delta Ip will stay the same regardless of the load. Consider what happens when the R goes sky high.

Now, if the load were NOT inductive, the maximum possible voltage generated would be equal to the rail voltage. No problem. This is how it is in SS amps. But with tube amps, that's not the case.

The primary danger here is in the development of these extraordinarily high voltages, which can punch through winding insulation, arc over tube sockets, even arc inside the tubes themselves. Once an arc has struck you can be pretty sure it will happen again. And again.

This is not good. Probably the worst scenario is that the OPT primary arcs to the core, which is grounded, and that will cause mega current to flow. The OPT is toast, and the power supply will be too unless something stops that current in a big hurry.

So that's what can happen with too high a load. Admittedly, this is an extreme case scenario here, where you've got an OPEN secondary, and thus a very very high primary impedance to work into.

Notice above how I pointed out that tetrodes/pentodes will have a worse time of this than triodes. This is because of their much higher dynamic plate impedance, which can also be described as their being an approximation of current sources. The pentode will just keep cranking out plate current-- regardless of what potential the plate is. The electrostatic shielding effect of the screen grid continues to "pull" electrons from the cathode with the same force. Thus the plate current is largely independent of the plate voltage, a mark of high plate impedance. That current is what "builds up" (so to speak) when working into a high load impedance and generates the excessive voltages. It's almost as if you've got a constant current load (the unloaded OPT) on a constant current generator (the plate of the pentode)-- obviously if these two devices are "concerned" with currents, not giving a flip about the voltages involved, you can get some pretty crazy effects.

With a triode, the much lower plate impedance limits the extent to which the plate voltage will swing about uncontrolled. As the plate swings high, for example, the attraction of electrons from cathode to plate will increase due to the higher voltage. More electrons will be pulled to the plate, regardless of what the control grid is doing. More negatively charged electrons means less positive voltage, so the voltage is "automatically" decreased. This is a direct measure of plate impedance.

In fact, running a triode into a very high impedance is done all the time with interstage transformers, which generally are very lightly loaded. The inherent degeneration in the plate circuit keeps the peak voltages from becoming a problem. Actually, triodes "love" current loads of very high impedance-- the tube is operated in its most linear fashion and is free to do what it does best-- generate an output VOLTAGE.

You can think of the dynamic plate impedance of the tube as forming a voltage divider, with the inductive tranny between plate and B+, and the tube itself between plate and ground. Obviously, with the low plate impedance of a triode, the voltage cannot swing madly about. Now consider the very high plate impedance of a pentode, and how much higher those plate voltages can swing.

OK, that's the situation of too HIGH a load impedance. So what about too LOW of an impedance? Let's consider a dead shorted secondary on the OPT.

Now the primary presents a very low load to the tube, a low impedance, a vertical load-line. We will notice that the tables have exactly turned.

Since the triode's plate is like a voltage source, it will attempt to pass incredible amounts of current in a heroic attempt to make the plate voltage swing. Operating into a dead short, it cannot do this, so something eventually will give. The cathode will attempt to emit way more electrons than it can, and it will have a short, hot life.

The pentode, however, is more of a current source, so it will continue to pass the total plate current in accordance with the screen voltage and the control grid voltage. These have not changed with the alteration of the load, so the pentode will continue to merrily pump its current swings into a dead shorted load.

Take a look at some plate curves, if you need to. Find some for pentodes and for triodes. Better yet, find some for the same power pentode connected as a triode (g2 connected to anode).

First the pentode case: look at the way the curves lie on the page. Imagine a horizontal load line (infinite load, open secondary) drawn on the graph. Notice how the pentode doesn't look like it would work this way-- an infinitesimal control grid voltage change would produce a gargantuan change in plate voltage. The tube is NOT happy. Now imagine a vertical load line (zero load, shorted secondary). The pentode's peak current for a given control grid voltage doesn't change much at all-- the vg1=0 plate curve is nearly horizontal for most power pentodes, cutting right across all of the various plate voltage points. It doesn't matter what Vp is at all-- no matter where you draw that vertical line, the peak plate current is pretty much the same. The tube is happy.

Now the triode case: imagine the horizontal load line now. Notice how the plate voltage is almost PERFECTLY proportional with respect to control grid voltage. No matter which tube you try, or what current you draw that horizontal line at, it will be VERY linear. The tube is happy. Then consider the shorted output tranny case, with a vertical load line. Notice how the vg1=0 curve will produce a humungous plate current since the plate curves are so much "steeper" than the pentode's case. The tube is NOT happy.

What the heck does all this mean? Well, hopefully you aren't running ANY tube amp into a shorted or open load... Since no pentode is a perfect current source, and no triode is a perfect voltage source, the actual characteristics are somewhere between the two idealized cases. As LV pointed out, you're much better off running a pentode amp into a lower load impedance than it expects. For those of you with triode output tubes, or a triode switch, you're better off running into a HIGHER load impedance. If you don't see why by now, reread this essay. It's also a good idea to take a high value power resistor, say 470R, and hard wire it right from the OPT secondary's 16R tap to ground. This will dissipate a very small amount of power under normal conditions, but will limit the extent to which the primary impedance will tend towards infinity in the case of a disconnected load.

For what it's worth, I've been deliberately "mismatching" load impedances by one tap for years. In other words, either a 4R or a 16R load on an 8R tap, and so on. This small mismatch will limit output power and will change the clipping points of the output tubes, but will not damage anything in a properly designed amplifier. Keep in mind that a higher load impedance in a pentode amp will put additional stress on the screens, so you may want to have at least 1k stoppers installed. A lower load impedance will cause more plate current to flow, and if you're running the tubes at the edge of acceptable quiescent plate dissipation that may push them over the edge into the red zone. If you've got an old vintage amp you'd hate to see get damaged, by all means, play it safe and don't mismatch at all. But if you're wondering about how it sounds, and the amp's got good trannies in it, then mismatch away. Just keep it within ONE TAP please, for safety's sake.

-Ken Gilbert, by way of PMG
 
onlyrockrocks":doxwyl3q said:
Adambomb":doxwyl3q said:
Regardless of what Ampete says... why change the rules now?

I do completely understand where you are comming from. And we are not too far away from another. I don't want to convince anybody, I want to animate you all to think things over any MAYBE (!!!) come to another, new conclusion. What I am wondering is: What if Ampete is right? I mean, it could be.
According to them, some manufacturers put a 'protection system' in their amps cabinet outputs, which is activated as soon as there's no cable plugged into the amp. The cabinet output gets short-circuited, which - according to Ampete - leads to a impedance of 0 Ohms.
In case that's right, either the rules you spoke of (and I learned and believed as well) or those kind protection circuits are absurd.

But again, I'm no expert, I'm just doing some research, passing on stuff I read and asking stupid questions... ;)


EDIT:

JamesPeters":doxwyl3q said:
Here's some info about why impedance matching is important:

http://aga.rru.com/FAQs/technical.html#imp-1

I just had a little discussion about physics, checked the simple formulas and then read through your link: Very interesting! Most of all because 1. the article says that mismatching one tap (4 into 8, 8 into 4, 8 into 16, 16 into 8) should never damage anything as long as you have a well done amp and 2. plugging (especially) a (pentode) amp into a lower impedance cab should be the safer way than going into a higher impedance cab and only could stress the tubes more. Correct? Because I believe that most people out there would rather go into a higher impedance cab, thinking this is safer. In case I understand the V (or U) = R x I formula right, the voltage will rise the more the impedance rises. Which does make sense to me, because plugging no cab into your amp would lead to a infinite impedance, which would cause a infite voltage and a major damage, right?

PS: No, you didn't come off like a jerk over this. It's all good... ;) Thanks for your input! :thumbsup:

This was my understanding as well.
 
I don't want to wade into this too much, but in general caution is best.
At lower volumes a mismatch is not as dangerous as at stage volume,
the sound will change due to the power bandwidth of the power amp design

Best way to go about doing this in my opinion, swap/trade/buy/sell speakers to get all of your cabs the same impedance, then you don't have to worry about it.
 
what ever that crap is fling it the speakers are power limiters for the tubes and output transformer you can go up in the ohm of the speaker but not down
 
Your cabs are all mismatched.
Measure the jack coming out of your cab. A 16 ohm cab usually reads about 12-14. An 8 ohm cab reads less than 8. There is a tolerance plus, or usually minus, when it comes to speaker resistance. :thumbsup:
 
I pulled two power tubes out of my SLO to make a 50w so it plays better with my Jettenuator. Mike Soldano said to cut the impedance on the head in half when doing that. So I run it a 8 ohms into my 16 ohm cab. I've been doing this at band volume for probably five mos. now with no ill effects. But I would like to try the head back at 16 ohms to see if the tone is any less dark. Ok to do? Ok at bedroom and band volumes or just at one or the other?
 
the power tubes are like valves. the plates and screens operate at a certin amp load. for it to work the speaker limits the amps in the tube. the output transformer is the link between the to. if no speaker is hooked up the power in the tube has no ground
 
Thanks for your PM, but it won't let me respond. I guess I need more posts.
 
Rick Lee":13cmwpy6 said:
I pulled two power tubes out of my SLO to make a 50w so it plays better with my Jettenuator. Mike Soldano said to cut the impedance on the head in half when doing that. So I run it a 8 ohms into my 16 ohm cab. I've been doing this at band volume for probably five mos. now with no ill effects. But I would like to try the head back at 16 ohms to see if the tone is any less dark. Ok to do? Ok at bedroom and band volumes or just at one or the other?

I would not try that especially considering you are cranking the amp and attenuating, asking for trouble if you ask me. Stick to 8 ohm for sure.
 
K, will keep it at 8 ohms. And will be bringing those spare power tubes to my gig tomorrow.
 
Rick Lee":3l7e453l said:
K, will keep it at 8 ohms. And will be bringing those spare power tubes to my gig tomorrow.
You mean about 6 ohms right :lol: :LOL: All these posts and noone mentions the fact that speakers have a fairly big tolerance in resistance. I think the only speakers I have ever measured at 16 ohms were tone tubby. Celestions are all around 12 or so.
 
I have run my old Marshalls (1974-1976) at 4 and 8 ohm into 16 ohm cabs for years (20 or so) and never had anything blow up. As others have said I was told never run the amp at 16 ohms into a 4 ohm cab but the other way is fine. I think I read that VH set the ohms at 4 on his Marshall when he ran it into 1 cab. Back in 2007 when I had my JVM I asked Santiago (the designer) about this and he said the JVM could handle it either way. He told me to use the output that sounded best. Go figure.. :rock:
 
What's with everyone trying to look for a simple anecdotal answer for this. The information was provided. Do what you will with it.

As for speaker "resistance": the reason a resistance reading of a speaker isn't the same as its rated nominal impedance is that you're measuring resistance with a meter (a DC measurement, not AC). So yes 16 ohm speakers will read around 13 ohms of resistance (8 ohm speakers will read around 6 ohms, 4 ohm speakers will read around 3 ohms).

Rick Lee":3m68x4tt said:
I pulled two power tubes out of my SLO to make a 50w so it plays better with my Jettenuator. Mike Soldano said to cut the impedance on the head in half when doing that. So I run it a 8 ohms into my 16 ohm cab. I've been doing this at band volume for probably five mos. now with no ill effects. But I would like to try the head back at 16 ohms to see if the tone is any less dark. Ok to do? Ok at bedroom and band volumes or just at one or the other?

You "cut the impedance in half" when you removed 2 of the tubes, and then you "doubled" it again by doing a purposeful "mismatch" to help balance things out. Sorry to sound pedantic about this, but it helps to know what you're actually doing. In this case you're actually keeping the impedance matched fairly closely when running 2 output tubes, "mismatching it back the other way" to compensate for the mismatch you create by removing 2 tubes.

If you want to "use the impedance selector like normal" when running with 2 output tubes: that's a mismatch, providing the amp with less impedance "than it expects". It's the safer of the two options, but it'll stress the tubes more. It'll also sound glassier, exaggerating the lows and highs. I'd just keep running it as Soldano said.
 
James, I've had these talks on this forum for years and everyone is an immediate expert. I'd save your sanity and leave it be.
 
glpg80":6fpm2ntr said:
James, I've had these talks on this forum for years and everyone is an immediate expert. I'd save your sanity and leave it be.

I was a bit cranky earlier. And a couple posts in particular seemed...odd, let's just say? :)
 
onlyrockrocks":et1m50z3 said:
Laurens":et1m50z3 said:
Interesting stuff for sure, but I would follow the manual of the manufacturer. They grant the warranty on your amp, not the amp switcher company. I'm no tech at all and very carefull, so this is the common sense that I use.

Well, then I guess we are much alike here. I tend to be super carefull as well. But the Ampete company isn't just anybody. They do R&D for some renown companies and warranty repairs for brands like 65 Amps, Bad Cat Amplifiers, Hughes & Kettner, Friedman, Custom Audio Amplifiers and Suhr. That's why I was surprised and got seriously interested in their point of view. And of course they assured, that they have done some serious testing regarding this topic.
Lets not confuse DC resistance with a reactive load which has an impedance curve.
I'm not aware of any "warranty and definitely no R&D" place for my amplifiers or Custom Audio which are my design. I will work with some techs to avoid shipping for the customer with my guidance. I have never found there to be any advantage to mismatching and it will change the way your amp sounds and behaves for the worse in my experience. If you go any direction use a larger load by 1 step but I only advise that if it is a fixed load resistor not a reactive load like a speaker to compensate for a non reactive load. I have tried re-amp devices that are 30 ohm non reactive on the 8 ohm and instantly blew a fuse in an otherwise perfect amp, might have to do with unloading too much. For my taste on my product I only recommend matching the impedance for the correct load on the power tubes and the optimal power transfer, you can not put a blanket statement saying it is fine for all amps. Mismatching will affect many things including the feedback network if there is one so why mess with the designers ears. Even though I don't ever remember having one of my OT pop for any reason. Marshall OT will pop if you look at them wrong. I had a customer blow 3 JCM900 transformers before he realized he had frayed speaker cables. Not something that usually takes out a transformer. Amp companies will short the the jack when not in use because that will usually blow a fuse. No load will usually blow the tranny :D
 
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